Alchemy Forum 0001-0050

From January 25th 1996, the Alchemy forum was restructured and the messages were sequentially numbered. This is an unedited extract of messages 1-50.
Go to next 50 messages . Back to forum archive.


Thu Jan 25 14:27:36 1996
Subject: 0001 Medicinal alchemy

Sorry we brought up a subject and then abandoned it for a few days- we were
busy moving our laboratory to a new location.
We've been working with different types of naturopathic practitioners,
trying to reconstruct Paracelsus' original healing system. We've found that
Paracelsus worked with different levels of medicinal preparations to effect
different cures. The different cures were directed at different diseases,
originating in one or more of five "ens" or causes of disease.
To effectively cure a disease, an understanding of the origin is necessary.
Vibrationally, there are two areas affected by spagyrics- the physical body
and the soul body. Spagyric preparations can have many levels of effect
within each of these bodies.
We feel that combinations of herbs should only be prepared together in
making medicines directed at the physical body only. This is because within
the physical level of the medicine, the ability to manipulate the
astrological qualities is much easier, and so a medicine with various
different energies can be manipulated towards a cure without a confusion of
energetics. Due to the level of spiritual manipulation needed to create a
higher, or soul, medicine, and the complexity of the energetic processes
needed, more than one plant energetic quality leads to confusion and
undirected energy. It may work in homeopathy to combine different plants,
but alchemy is really another system entirely.
The system for prescribing spagyric medicines uses the seven planetary
archetypes for evaluating the vibrational quality of the disease, and its
cure, from a vibrational level. The other possible way of using a spagyric
is by finding the constitution of the patient, using the hour and day of
birth, to support the constitution at a soul level. In this way, the seven
planetary qualities are created within the body, and brought into balance,
according to the Hermetic axiom "as above, so below..."


Strength & Wisdom,
Paul & Micah

NOTE: After this was returned to us three times over the last week, we found
out the new address, and posted it there, and so we must apologise for an
even further delay in our comments.


Thu Jan 25 14:27:38 1996
Subject: 0002 First Book on Alchemy - Heydon

Tom Hennessy replies to my note about whether Bacon was actively involved in the
Rosicrucian Movement

>Why is he called the 'Imperator of the Rosicrucians in the seventeenth
>century' in the Roscrucian Manual?

I don't know the 'Rosicrucian Manual' you refer to. I do not know of any contemporary evidence (i.e. from the 17th Century) to suggest that Bacon was involved in the Rosicrucian movement. The term 'Imperator of the Rosicrucians' is also not a title we find in 17th century texts, but sounds like a pseudo-masonic term current in late 19th century occultism.

With my best wishes

Adam McLean


Thu Jan 25 13:26:30 1996
Subject: 0003 Fulcanelli's Books

From: tducreux@ufrima.imag.fr (ducreux thierry)

you say there is a fragment of the book Finis Gloriae Mundi.
In what edition ?
Have you this fragment ?

Thierry.


Thu Jan 25 16:39:27 1996
Subject: 0004 Alchemy and Semiotics.

From: OISPEGGY@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu

Andrew:
> For those who don't know, semiotics is a theoretiocal approach to
>human communication. I am using it to study renaissance alchemical texts.
>I think most forms of alchemical interpretation are unduly biased by
>assumptions about what the text and alchemy are, and by previous
>interpretations.

Could you possibly post a few (not lengthy) examples?

Regards,

- Peggy -




Thu Jan 25 17:17:15 1996
Subject: 0005 Delayed and lost post on the forum

This afternoon 25th January, I finally pressurised Colloquium to spend the time to look in more depth into the problem of delayed mail, using an example of 21 day late mail from a subscriber in Australia.

They found a series of suspended processes involving about 1000 messages which had not been sent. Apparently if a mail system crash occurs while the listserver is processing a list it creates a suspended process which it attempts to recover and post once it is rebooted. There were apparently a number of these processes and the listserver didn't clear the backlist cleanly. Thus everytime it was rebooted, it would choose one of these suspended processes and some of these messages (but not all) would get posted, even although they were weeks overdue.

At least this explains the delays, and means that we can keep an eye on this in future. Please inform me if there seem to be long delays of three days or more in your posts.

I feel much happier now this has been explained, and the problem hopefully rectified.


With my best wishes,

Adam McLean


Thu Jan 25 17:21:48 1996
Subject: 0006 New address for the alchemy forum

!!!! NEW ADDRESS FOR THE ALCHEMY FORUM !!!!

As of 23rd January all postings for the alchemy forum must be sent to

alchemypost@colloquium.co.uk

Any posts you send to the previous address "alchemy-forum@colloquium.co.uk" will, from now on, no longer be posted out to the forum, but returned as undelivered to you. Please set up your mailing programs with this new address for the forum.

I allowed a little overlap up to the 25th but from now you will have to use the new address.

From now on I will sequentially number the messages from the forum, using the subject field.

With my best wishes,


Adam McLean


Thu Jan 25 18:05:40 1996
Subject: 0007 Help w/extraction

From: OISPEGGY@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu

>Here is a question I have had for a while. Maybe someone could answer for
>me. In _The Alchemists Handbook_, Chapter III, The Herbal Elixir, Step 1
>reads "A sufficient amount of alcohol should be rectified." The word
>rectified is footnoted like this: (BTW, this is the revised edition, 1974.)

> "To rectify alcohol, proceed as follows: Take any pure
>non-poisonous alcohol (190 proof spirits) and distill at 78 degrees C.
>Whatever is distilled at a temperature above 78 degrees C. cannot be
>used. Take all that has been distilled at not above 78 degrees C. and
>place this again in a clean flask. Re-distill at 76 degrees C. The
>distillate should then be distilled again. This is to be performed seven
>times from the first distillation. That which remains behind will become
>darker after each distillation. Finally, at the last distillation the
>distillate will be a crystal clear alcohol."

I meant to ask about this too. In one place I think it says to
run it through rectification a 3 different times? Too time/energy
consuming for me. Is there a place to buy it already rectified?
Now, don't flame me off the list for asking. Seems to me that
this is just busywork and that so long as the alcohol is rectified,
what's the diff. who did it? Its not the main part of the experiment.

Also, I believe it said to use grape wine that had a low amount of
alcohol init -- like 17%? Though maybe I am confusing this with
something else. Will have to check the book.

One more quick question, how flammable is alcohol and does it blow
up at a certain temp.? If so, how does one avoid this?

Regards,

- Peggy -


Thu Jan 25 19:38:05 1996
Subject: 0008 Help w/extraction

From: zirdo@ramhb.co.nz (Pat Zalewski)


>Hello --
>
>Thanks to everyone who replied to my questions about calcination. I got a
>camping burner which I'll try out just as soon as it gets a bit warmer
>outside.
>
>BTW, if anyone comes across plans for building a wind furnace, could they
>please forward them (or a reference) my way? I would greatly appreciate it.
>
>Here is a question I have had for a while. Maybe someone could answer for
>me. In _The Alchemists Handbook_, Chapter III, The Herbal Elixir, Step 1
>reads "A sufficient amount of alcohol should be rectified." The word
>rectified is footnoted like this: (BTW, this is the revised edition, 1974.)
>
> "To rectify alcohol, proceed as follows: Take any pure
>non-poisonous alcohol (190 proof spirits) and distill at 78 degrees C.
>Whatever is distilled at a temperature above 78 degrees C. cannot be
>used. Take all that has been distilled at not above 78 degrees C. and
>place this again in a clean flask. Re-distill at 76 degrees C. The
>distillate should then be distilled again. This is to be performed seven
>times from the first distillation. That which remains behind will become
>darker after each distillation. Finally, at the last distillation the
>distillate will be a crystal clear alcohol."
>
>OK, so, I know that 7 is an important number... But chemically the above
>confuses me. From the elementary chemistry which I have picked up, I would
>think that 190 proof spirits is 95% alcohol, 5% water, which is an
>azetrope. So you can't get it more pure than that by distillation, by the
>chemical definition. And to the eye, it looks crystal clear to start
>with... But maybe the point is not to take the alcohol from a stock
>bottle, but to do some preparations to it which will turn it into the
>prima materia...? Or something similar???
>
>I did a sohxlet extraction last night, following the rest of the steps,
>using the 190 proof alcohol straight out of the bottle. Maybe I'll try to
>do step 1 first this time. Any clues as to a difference I should be
>looking for?
>
>Thanks. All help appreciated.
>
>-- Jessie
> jessiez@clam.com
>
>You do not need to used a 7 fly distillation all the time. The idea is to
produce an alcohol that is free from water. Distill untill there is no
more. A good test for this is after every distillation put the alcohol in a
teaspoon and burn it. What is left shows what % of alcohol you have left. be
careful though as the flame is almost invisible.


Fri Jan 26 08:58:02 1996
Subject: 0009 The alchemy forum restructured

Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 16:17:43 -0800
From: Byrun_Fox@mindlink.bc.ca (Byrun Fox)

Dear Adam;

Congratulations on taking a stand. I, in my ignorance, thought that there
was some type of filtering going on, as I often didn't see my messages
posted. As you are the moderator, you have absolute call on what is posted.
Let those who complain start thier own forum. Please clarify for me whether
or not you feel that discussions on white gold are appropriate. Thanks
kindly, byrun.
>


Fri Jan 26 08:58:51 1996
Subject: 0010 Help w/extraction

Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 21:18:42 -0500 (EST)
From: John Reid
Subject: Re: Help w/extraction
In-Reply-To: <9601221326.AA72956@steamer.clam.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Jesse
The need to do a 7 fold distillation on the alcohol is two fold. 1) for
purification, the second for spiritulization of the matter. By causing
the matter to become volitale and enter a gaseous state, the alchemist
can interact with it more readily. There is also circulation that
enhances the latter.
Your Brother and Servant
John H. Reid III


Fri Jan 26 09:00:19 1996
Subject: 0011 Re: Hudson UK Patent: a test. Attatched wpg001.pcx - wpg004.pcx

Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 13:01:00 -0800

sorry about that last message- just keeping an ex-list member informed- and i'd
wondered where it had got to.

jon


Fri Jan 26 09:08:57 1996
Subject: 0012 medicinal alchemy -Reply

Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 08:14:13 +0100
From: Christian Vanden Berghen

Dear Anastasy,
Please excuse my poor English. I understand it but write it very difficult.
So, in Belgium, a friend of mine has a bussines of Chinese herbs in Ghent.
If you are interested, I could give you his references. He doesn't know
much about Alchemy, but knows a lot of things about Chinese herbs !
Christian
>
>A question: are there commercially-produced spagyric remedies that are
>worthy of the name? Certainly homeopathic medicine has worthy
>representatives, as well as anthroposophical medicine.
>
>Cheers,
>Anastasy.
>1/19/96
>
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Christian VANDEN BERGHEN
Rota Solis asbl
Brussels/Belgium
christian.vanden.berghen@netropolis.be
ChristianVandenBerghen@msn.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


Fri Jan 26 09:23:35 1996
Subject: 0014 Backlog of postings

I do apologise for the chaos of the past day. There were a number of blocks of uncleared messages in the alchemy forum listserver, many appear to date back a number of weeks. When resetting the listserver all these old messages seem to be being resurrected and reposted. It should clear after a day or so.

Please just ignore these old posting.

Adam McLean



Fri Jan 26 09:03:47 1996
Subject: 0013 Re Hudson UK Patent: a test. Attatched wpg001.pcx - wpg004.pcx

Date: Thu, 25 Jan 96 20:13 PST
From: goldenthr@yelmtel.com (Diane Munoz)

I'm not sure what this messages attempt was, but I am interested in the UK
patent information that was supposed to be attached.... Is it in regards to
the "White Powder"? If so, could you resend? Thanks... unless it's old
stuff.
Thanks.


Fri Jan 26 12:11:51 1996
Subject: 0015 IMPORTANT MESSAGE about the alchemy forum changes

The restructuring of the alchemy forum to make it a fully moderated one, has not been entirely without problems, however, hopefully things are now set up correctly.

From now on you MUST address your posts to

alchemypost@colloquium.co.uk

I have used this in the "from" field of each message, so if you use the "reply to" command on your mail program it should send it to this address, however, if you have set up a nickname or alias for the forum (on a menu say) you must manually update the address to "alchemypost@colloquium.co.uk".

If you send mail to "alchemy-forum@colloquium.co.uk" from now on you will receive your mail returned with this message

Error in delivery to mailing list alchemy-forum:
access denied; send subscription requests to alchemy-forum-Request@colloquium.co.uk


I do apologise for the inconvenience, but we should in future have a quieter, more serious and straightforward forum, immune from all the bluster and nonsense of the last month or so.

With my best wishes,

Adam McLean


P.S. There was a problem earlier today (26th January) when the alchemy forum listserver began to repost old messages from days and even weeks ago which had been stuck in a crashed mail queue. I had to get Colloquium to flush the mail queue for their server so a number of recent posts (i.e. 25 and 26th January) may have inadvertently been thrown away.

P.P.S. From now on I am sequentially numbering the posts so you can see at a glance if a post is missing.



Fri Jan 26 13:58:58 1996
Subject: 0016 Finis Gloriae Mundi

From: tducreux@ufrima.imag.fr (ducreux thierry)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 13:02:08 +0100

Someone say there is a fragment of Finis Gloriae Mundi.
Have someone this fragment ?
Perhaps a book ?

Thierry.


Fri Jan 26 17:04:28 1996
Subject: 0017 labs

Date: Fri, 26 Jan 96 09:35:24 CST
From: hill@ra.timeplex.com (dan hill ON RA SERVER)

Greetings,

I noticed that a few of the posts described the simplicity of
setting up experiments.

I seem to make things hard for myself. Is a fume-hood necessary
or can the hazardous experiments be done on a table outdoors?

Back in the days of my college chemestry, we used the fume-hood
quite a bit. It was however rather expensive looking and seemed
hard to clean.

How about cleaning your glassware? Any suggestions out there?


ave,

Dan


Sat Jan 27 12:09:12 1996
Subject: 0018 Locating the prima materia

Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 16:55:00 +0000
From: susan@terrain.demon.co.uk

>I thought it would contribute to our
>understanding of this fundamental idea in alchemy to examine what meanings
>the alchemists themselves ascribe to the prima materia. If some members of
>the alchemy-forum are interested in this research, I propose to post etc.

>Best regards,
>Maury

Maury,
many thanks for the extremely interesting and useful post on PM as
'caelum'. Yes, please - I for one would be very glad to hear more of your
researches!
Although since your post date was so long ago you may have already posted more.
(Your post, sent 7/1/96, arrived today, 24/1/96).

Yours in peace, Susan.


Sat Jan 27 12:10:00 1996
Subject: 0019 Druid Alchemy

Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 16:55:24 +0000
From: susan@terrain.demon.co.uk


**Having received Adam's warning that some posts may recently have been
lost, and not having seen these posts appear, I am reposting a couple of
things to the new address. If this causes a duplication, I am sorry!


Dear Alchemists, does anyone know about the Alchemy of the Druids, known as
Pheryllt or Feryllt? The word is from 'ffer' - Cymric for 'that which is
solid' i.e. metal (>our words ferrous and so on).It is sometimes called
'Calvyddyon Pheryllt', which implies chemistry as well as metallurgy. The
subject is mentioned very briefly in several books I have, among them Ross
Nichols' The Book of Druidry, Matthews' Encyclopedia of Celtic Wisdom,
Philip Carr-Gomm's Elements of Druidry (Which says that legend tells of a
city of Druid alchemists in Snowdonia, known as Emrys or Dinas Affaraon,
'the city of higher powers'). According to Nichols, groves of Druid
alchemists are known to have existed around Oxford from about AD 800.

I would be grateful for any further information, or pointers to other resources.

Yours in peace, Susan.


Sat Jan 27 12:11:05 1996
Subject: 0020 Questions for YOU ...

Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 06:46:13 +1000
From: a.browne@pgrad.unimelb.edu.au (xero)

>I noticed that a few of the posts described the simplicity of
>setting up experiments.


Are there many of us interested in practical alchemy?

Where do you start? (I suppose this is a prennial question.)

Is there anyone who thinks they 'understand' alchemy?
ie. can anyone (especially anyone in the forum) open a renaissance
alchemical text
and be confident that they fully understand what they are reading?

Is such a thing even possible?

( I suppose one could ask a similar question of the Bible.
There are those that are sure, but you have to worry about them ... )

How important is not-knowing?

Is a certain amount of ignorance important to an alchemical process?

And, the biggie, is there anyone now living that claims to have successfully
completed the alchemical process and/or has effected transmutation?


questions, questions, (thanks,) xero.


Sat Jan 27 12:12:11 1996
Subject: 0021 First Book on Alchemy - Heydon - Bacon

Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 13:51:14 -0600
From: taliesin@mail.utexas.edu (George Randall Leake III)


>>>Heydon's intention is clearly to use his modified text from the 'New
>>>Atlantis' (published 35 years earlier in 1627) to promote his own ideas on
>>>the Rosicrucians. Some twentieth century 'Baconians' have rather foolishly
>>>drawn on this preface to suggest that Bacon was actively involved in the
>>>Rosicrucian movement.
>Tony Lowes wrote-->
>Sir Frances Bacon was I suspect in fact one of the enemies of alchemy.
***definitely Bacon is widely seen as an enemy of Hermetic Philosophy.
Seems like there are several passages in the New Atlantis to that effect,
ironically

>The causes of superstition are: pleasing and sensual rites and ceremonies;
>excess of outward and pharisaical holiness; over-great reverence of traditions,
>which cannot but load the church; the stratagems of prelates for their own
>ambition and lucre; the favouring too much of good intentions, which
>openeth the
>gate to conceits and novelties; the taking an aim at divine matters by human,
>which cannot but breed mixture of imaginations; and lastly, barbarous times,
>especially joined with calamities and disasters...
***and even this quote here smacks of the empirical attitude towards
matters more theological. In fact, it has a bit of a Leninist ring to it,
no? And just to think, there were some who seriously proposed that Bacon
ghost wrote all of Shakespeare...

-G.Leake, 512-471-9117 taliesin@mail.utexas.edu

"To be ignorant of what occurred before you were born is to remain always a
child."
-Cicero
"Oh age! oh letters! It is a joy to be alive!...Woe to you, barbarians!"
-Ulrich von Hutten, 1518, Poet Laureate of the German Empire


Sat Jan 27 15:29:27 1996
Subject: 0022 Questions for YOU ...

Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 07:14:40 -0800
From: subrider@ix.netcom.com (Charlie Richards )

Yes, there are those that can open the books and understand what the
writer was trying to say.

And yes, it is very, VERY, important to know what they are saying. We
are dealing with very toxic substances and explosive mixtures
sometimes. The further you go the more dangerous it is. There are
many accounts of Alchemists blowing themselves up.

Gun powder is the result of an Alchemist at work. The most prevelant
danger is the acids we use.

And YES there are those that have finished the Great Work.

Charlie


Sat Jan 27 17:01:57 1996
Subject: 0023 Questions for YOU ...

Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 10:06:00 -0700 (MST)
From: Tom Hennessy


The whole thing with alchemy and the Bible is that they don't seem to
come together except by spirituality.

I cannot find any mention of 'alchemy'.. in the Bible.

Shhh.. personally I think that the 'alchemy'.. are herbologists,
pharmacists and the like who 'followed'.. the mystic path and therefore
became part of the 'antichrist'.. in the eyes of the church.

Being considered 'in league with the devil' can be a hazard to your
health depending on what part of history you come from.

Jesus never was too interested in .. cash. [gold]

He was a bit interested in 'transmutation'.. though. :)

Becoming the 'perfect'.. person.

Transmutation by man upon himself is performed by the realization we are
not to harm a 'living'.. creature.

This realization will bring .. vegetarianism. This vegetarianism brings a
decrease of 'iron'.. stores.. after a while.

This lowering of the iron stores.. brings about a 'calmness'.

When a child is born with 'high iron stores'.. they a quite likely also
to be born with 'cold heartedness'. This is when they cannot seem to feel
for the other person. They cannot put themselves in the other persons shoes.

They are 'mean'. We become 'mean'.

I know you don't believe me...

As a girl though you should want to hear this. The number one result of
high iron stores is a malfunctioning liver. The number one result of a
malfunctioning liver is .. cysts in the reproductive organs of man and woman.

"I will settle the barren woman in her home the mother of many."

A promise women seem to take .. lightly. If only they would 'realize'..
they ..CAN.. be mothers. Unless the docs have cut everything away by now.

Short walk from birth to death though.. so.. be happy.

Hypogonadism : Men begin to grow breasts, lose body hair , testes recede
and they lose their fertility.

Treatment? Bloodletting. Lowering of the iron stores bring these men back
to normal.

Direct evidence of the result of our.. sin or more precisely our ..
'unknown sin'. IMHO :)

"I will turn your men into women."

Who loves ya.
Tom http://www.nucleus.com/watchman


Sat Jan 27 21:38:54 1996
Subject: 0024 more questions ...

Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 06:53:17 +1000
From: a.browne@pgrad.unimelb.edu.au (xero)



>And YES there are those that have finished the Great Work.


er, thanks Charlie, I was kind of hoping for more than yes / no answers.

WHO (living) has completed the Great Work ?
how do you know about it ?

are you, by your answers, trying to imlpy that you are possessed of such
understandings ?

are you also saying that there is a single correct interpretation of
alchemical texts ?

... anyone ? ...


Sat Jan 27 22:15:54 1996
Subject: 0025 Subject: answers?, questions ...

Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 08:23:27 +1000
From: a.browne@pgrad.unimelb.edu.au (xero)
Subject: answers?, questions ...


I wrote:

>Is there anyone who thinks they 'understand' alchemy?
...
>Is such a thing even possible?

>( I suppose one could ask a similar question of the Bible.
There are those that are sure, but you have to worry about them ... )


Tom Hennessy replied:


>The whole thing with alchemy and the Bible is that they don't seem to
>come together except by spirituality.
>
>I cannot find any mention of 'alchemy'.. in the Bible.



The parallel I was drawing with the bible was that both it and alchemical
texts are symbolically complex and seemingly open to many interpretations.
Despite this, some people proclaim loud and long that they have THE correct
interpretation of the bible. These people are fundamentalists and are a
source of some concern to creative, thinking people.

Should the same concern be felt for someone proclaiming a 'correct'
interpretation of an alchemical text?

My question, I then suppose, is something like this:



Are alchemical texts recipes or poems (or a unique fusion
of the two) ?


thanks, xero.


Sun Jan 28 12:44:36 1996
Subject: 0026 Druid alchemy

From: "Jon Marshall"
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 09:05:49 -0800

On Jan 27, 12:16pm, Alchemy forum wrote:
> From: susan@terrain.demon.co.uk
>
>
> Dear Alchemists, does anyone know about the Alchemy of the Druids, known as
> Pheryllt or Feryllt? The word is from 'ffer' - Cymric for 'that which is
> solid' i.e. metal (>our words ferrous and so on).It is sometimes called
> 'Calvyddyon Pheryllt', which implies chemistry as well as metallurgy. The
> subject is mentioned very briefly in several books I have, among them Ross
> Nichols' The Book of Druidry, Matthews' Encyclopedia of Celtic Wisdom,
> Philip Carr-Gomm's Elements of Druidry (Which says that legend tells of a
> city of Druid alchemists in Snowdonia, known as Emrys or Dinas Affaraon,
> 'the city of higher powers'). According to Nichols, groves of Druid
> alchemists are known to have existed around Oxford from about AD 800.

may i ask what sources he gives for this?

As this is the earliest reference to alchemy in europe that i know of.

Previous to this the earliest *possible* reference known to me was the Mappae
Claviculae, a document of italian provenance which is a miscellany of various
arts and crafts from c. 950 though possibly written 100 years or so earlier.
It contains a recipe for increasing gold- which does not seem to be particuarly
alchemical other than in its subject matter.
The document may also represent byzantine, rather than european tradition.

The only reference i can remember to this document is in
Charles Singer *The Earliest Chemical Industry*, Folio Society (!) 1948 p45.

jon


Sun Jan 28 12:45:59 1996
Subject: 0027 more questions ...

From: Logodox

At 10:13 P 1-27-96 +0000, you wrote:
[Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 06:53:17 +1000
a.browne@pgrad.unimelb.edu.au (xero)]
are you also saying that there is a single correct interpretation of
alchemical texts ?]

Don't know what Charlie is saying for sure, but I'd offer that there is
definitely not a single intrepretation of anything so complex as alchemy,
unless You narrow it down to a specific combinational application...

Even then, there may not be a single way of describing it due to different
levels of awareness of the observer, and different levels of the "actuality"
out there...e,g, certain phenomena can be described mechanically,
electrically, hydro-statically,
acoustically, quantum-dynamically, classically (newtonian) and last and
completely opposite of least S P I R I T U A L L Y which I liken to
(incorporeal) that is an existing state of being which in non-finite and not
available to our senses. That such exists can be of no doubt to a true
philosopher / scientist / mystic (they were all as one at one brief period
in our history) e.g. P.A.M. Dirac posited his theory of the electron in 1928
and in 1931 predicted the "ANTI" particle based on the mathematics and
symmetry of his equations, and in his equations, i (square root of -1) plays
a prominent part, which means that something is happening way down there
that the human mean cannot model in terms of postion and momemtum. The rest
is obvious from particle physics. The PRIMA MATERIA is possibly an original
CHAOTIC thing which is no (particular) thing but which underlies all things,
i.e. out mind and brain system appears to color all of "external" reality
like clear water running over a table and the water takes on the attributes
and colors of those things it touches.

Some thing (or no thing as we can imagine) so nebulous and probably
non-polar (in comparison to charged particles), so non-specific yet so all
encompassing, would be
impossible to denote at only 1 level and with on symbol of phrase in our
FINITE language and brains which are part of the whole thing which we are
trying to describe.

Read the TAO-TE-CHING by LAO TZU (its on the net)...
Read SUGGESTIVE INQUIRY INTO THE HERMETIC PHILOSOPHY by Mary Anne
Atwood...she quotes hundreds of philosophers, mathematicians, and scientists
thruout the ages describing the PRIMA MATERIA !

Hint...Subsconsious MInd is close to it...

GEEEZ ! Did I write the above ? Or was it inspired ?

Best,

Logodox
nous.


Sun Jan 28 12:46:58 1996
Subject: 0028 Alchemy and Semiotics.

From: "Jon Marshall"
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 10:46:21 -0800


I would be interested in knowing the results of your work,as it always seemed a
possibly interesting approach to me...
but how are you going about it?

are you working within one text (ala Barthes), or using the images across texts
(like Levi-strauss might)?

there is a short and fairly amateurish attempt in patrick harpur's novel
Mercurius- and i once saw a thesis in a library catelogue at NSW university, but
it seemed to be missing- this was some years (at least 10) ago- i don't know if
they ever found a replacement- and i can't remember the author.
(useful of me)

sadly, i cannot think of anything else directly relevant, but...

whatever its role in understanding alchemy, it might be worth having a look at
jung's treatment of the structure of symbols in achemy- particularly the
transference essay in vol 16 (though as a few people on this list have pointed
out, Jung seems to have ignored some of the relevant plates here)- and in Aion
Vol 9 pt 2 (which in my opinion anticiaptes Levi-straus and possibly lacan- if
read in the 'right way' of course:)

I have always been a bit staggered at the lack of structuralist/semiotic
approaches to alchemy from the academy and wish you every success and await
progress with interest.

jon


On Jan 20, 7:00am, xero wrote: [some deletions]

> I use
> semiotics to interpret an alchemical text only as much as the text
> directly permits (at least at this stage).
>
> Semiotics mentions a thing called an "aesthetic code", which is
> a text that can be interpreted by way of its own internal cues. I
> believe many alchemical texts correspond to this notion.
>
> I am presently researching my PhD thesis on this topic. I would be
> extremely interested to hear if anyone is or knows of anyone interested
> in this area. Any contacts, publications, comments, advice ???
>


Sun Jan 28 17:12:27 1996
Subject: 0029 answers?, questions ...

Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 09:17:47 -0500
From: kcrist@gate.net


one can read paracelsus for instance and "believe" they understand alchemy. but
it is and will allways remain a belief. there isnt much value in beliving in
anything. the moment a belief becomes part of a persons mental agenda doubt
comes in. as taoism states: those who speak do not know.
Kirk


Sun Jan 28 17:13:57 1996
Subject: 0030 Questions for YOU ...

Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 07:24:19 -0800
From: subrider@ix.netcom.com (Charlie Richards )

>Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 10:06:00 -0700 (MST)
>From: Tom Hennessy
>
>
>The whole thing with alchemy and the Bible is that they don't seem to
>come together except by spirituality.
>
>I cannot find any mention of 'alchemy'.. in the Bible.
>
>Shhh.. personally I think that the 'alchemy'.. are herbologists,
>pharmacists and the like who 'followed'.. the mystic path and
therefore
>became part of the 'antichrist'.. in the eyes of the church.
>
>Being considered 'in league with the devil' can be a hazard to your
>health depending on what part of history you come from.
>
>Jesus never was too interested in .. cash. [gold]
>
>He was a bit interested in 'transmutation'.. though. :)
>
>Becoming the 'perfect'.. person.
>
>Transmutation by man upon himself is performed by the realization we
are
>not to harm a 'living'.. creature.
>
>This realization will bring .. vegetarianism. This vegetarianism
brings a
>decrease of 'iron'.. stores.. after a while.
>
>This lowering of the iron stores.. brings about a 'calmness'.
>
>When a child is born with 'high iron stores'.. they a quite likely
also
>to be born with 'cold heartedness'. This is when they cannot seem to
feel
>for the other person. They cannot put themselves in the other persons
shoes.
>
>They are 'mean'. We become 'mean'.
>
>I know you don't believe me...
>
>As a girl though you should want to hear this. The number one result
of
>high iron stores is a malfunctioning liver. The number one result of a

>malfunctioning liver is .. cysts in the reproductive organs of man and
woman.
>
>"I will settle the barren woman in her home the mother of many."
>
>A promise women seem to take .. lightly. If only they would
'realize'..
>they ..CAN.. be mothers. Unless the docs have cut everything away by
now.
>
>Short walk from birth to death though.. so.. be happy.
>
>Hypogonadism : Men begin to grow breasts, lose body hair , testes
recede
>and they lose their fertility.
>
>Treatment? Bloodletting. Lowering of the iron stores bring these men
back
>to normal.
>
>Direct evidence of the result of our.. sin or more precisely our ..
>'unknown sin'. IMHO :)
>
>"I will turn your men into women."
>
>Who loves ya.
>Tom http://www.nucleus.com/watchman
>
>

Tom,
Where did you come up with the data to support this? I would love to
read it. It sounds so, well...

We now know that the greatest problem with too much iron in men is
heart failure. That is why women have such a low rick of heart attack
when compared to men. Iron loss through menstration is a blessing in
disguise.

Charlie


Sun Jan 28 17:15:02 1996
Subject: 0031 Questions for YOU ...

Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 07:28:01 -0800
From: subrider@ix.netcom.com (Charlie Richards )

You wrote:
>
>Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 10:06:00 -0700 (MST)
>From: Tom Hennessy
>
>
>The whole thing with alchemy and the Bible is that they don't seem to
>come together except by spirituality.
>
>I cannot find any mention of 'alchemy'.. in the Bible.
>
>Shhh.. personally I think that the 'alchemy'.. are herbologists,
>pharmacists and the like who 'followed'.. the mystic path and
therefore
>became part of the 'antichrist'.. in the eyes of the church.
>
>Being considered 'in league with the devil' can be a hazard to your
>health depending on what part of history you come from.
>
>Jesus never was too interested in .. cash. [gold]
>
>He was a bit interested in 'transmutation'.. though. :)
>
>Becoming the 'perfect'.. person.
>
>Transmutation by man upon himself is performed by the realization we
are
>not to harm a 'living'.. creature.
>
>This realization will bring .. vegetarianism. This vegetarianism
brings a
>decrease of 'iron'.. stores.. after a while.
>
>This lowering of the iron stores.. brings about a 'calmness'.
>
>When a child is born with 'high iron stores'.. they a quite likely
also
>to be born with 'cold heartedness'. This is when they cannot seem to
feel
>for the other person. They cannot put themselves in the other persons
shoes.
>
>They are 'mean'. We become 'mean'.
>
>I know you don't believe me...
>
>As a girl though you should want to hear this. The number one result
of
>high iron stores is a malfunctioning liver. The number one result of a

>malfunctioning liver is .. cysts in the reproductive organs of man and
woman.
>
>"I will settle the barren woman in her home the mother of many."
>
>A promise women seem to take .. lightly. If only they would
'realize'..
>they ..CAN.. be mothers. Unless the docs have cut everything away by
now.
>
>Short walk from birth to death though.. so.. be happy.
>
>Hypogonadism : Men begin to grow breasts, lose body hair , testes
recede
>and they lose their fertility.
>
>Treatment? Bloodletting. Lowering of the iron stores bring these men
back
>to normal.
>
>Direct evidence of the result of our.. sin or more precisely our ..
>'unknown sin'. IMHO :)
>
>"I will turn your men into women."
>
>Who loves ya.
>Tom http://www.nucleus.com/watchman
>
>
Tom,
The bible is full of alchemical processes. Transmutation is the basis
of the whole thing.

Jesus did not transmute himself, nor was he transmuted at all. He was
born perfect. That is the lesson to be learned from it. You can in no
way perfect yourself...To try is a fools game. That is not to say you
can not improve yourself, but perfection...not possible.

The ten commandments were not to give us the law, they were to show us
that we can not live up to the law. The commandments were to
illustrate that without some mechanism of salvation from our creator,
we could not do it alone.

Charie


Sun Jan 28 17:16:51 1996
Subject: 0032 more questions ...

Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 07:44:44 -0800
From: subrider@ix.netcom.com (Charlie Richards )

You wrote:
>
>Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 06:53:17 +1000
>From: a.browne@pgrad.unimelb.edu.au (xero)
>
>
>>And YES there are those that have finished the Great Work.
>
>er, thanks Charlie, I was kind of hoping for more than yes / no
answers.
>
>WHO (living) has completed the Great Work ?
>how do you know about it ?
>
>are you, by your answers, trying to imlpy that you are possessed of
such
>understandings ?
>
>are you also saying that there is a single correct interpretation of
>alchemical texts ?
>
>... anyone ? ...
>
>
No I am not implying that I poessess such understanding. I am stating
quite clearly that I have such understanding.

If you ever stood over a fire and watched, as I have, or held a beaker
and watched it for long enough...you would understand that all the
Alchemists were doing is actually discribing what they were seeing in
their expiriments.

That is why I have such a strong view of Alchemy. The esoteric aspects
will put you in the right frame of mind to go where no man has gone
before...and not blow yourself up. But beyond that you have to apply
it in the physical world.

I have been transmuting the elements and all life around me for a very,
very long time. It is not all that difficult once you understand the
laws that govern such things.

I am one step from the stone. One. I have all the necessary
ingriedients and materials, but am unsure as to why I should proceed.

I am not so sure I want to finish what I started so long ago. You see
to get where I am you find that it may not be such a great idea to have
something that powerful in your life.

Although transmuting the elements is great fun, and is a sure way to
riches, you will find if you get there...riches are not that great to
have if you have emplimented the esoteric teaching into your life.

The greatest wealth to come from a life dedicated to Alchemy is
understanding. And with that understanding you come to know that
wealth for its own sake is an empty box.

I gave it up once I had it. Not once, but three times have I gained
what some say is the top...and just walked away from it. It is a
shallow victory to gain success only to find that it is not what you
really want. It is the striving to get there that is the key. For
without striving, life really sucks. It is a flat line, no real ups,
no real downs.

As for living for a long time...who needs it. Being healthy your whole
life is not that great either. I know this may sound kind of wierd to
someone who has not been there, but life as it is, is ok.

What you will find if you make it, is...well it is the trip that is
important to you...not the destination.

Don't be in a hurry to get there...because once you do, you will find
that you will have rather taken your time and savored.

Kind of being really hungry....food never tastes so good. But once you
have enough to eat...it is just eating another meal.

So strive, try everyting, enjoy the trip, it will be over soon enough
anyway.

And will I tell you how, NO. Will I tell you how to get most of the
way...YES.
Charlie


Sun Jan 28 17:18:27 1996
Subject: 0033 answers?, questions ...

Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 07:48:09 -0800
From: subrider@ix.netcom.com (Charlie Richards )

You wrote:
>
>Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 08:23:27 +1000
>From: a.browne@pgrad.unimelb.edu.au (xero)
>Subject: answers?, questions ...
>
>
>I wrote:
>
>>Is there anyone who thinks they 'understand' alchemy?
>...
>>Is such a thing even possible?
>
>>( I suppose one could ask a similar question of the Bible.
> There are those that are sure, but you have to worry about them ...
)
>
>
>Tom Hennessy replied:
>
>
>>The whole thing with alchemy and the Bible is that they don't seem to

>>come together except by spirituality.
>>
>>I cannot find any mention of 'alchemy'.. in the Bible.
>
>
>
>The parallel I was drawing with the bible was that both it and
alchemical
>texts are symbolically complex and seemingly open to many
interpretations.
>Despite this, some people proclaim loud and long that they have THE
correct
>interpretation of the bible. These people are fundamentalists and are
a
>source of some concern to creative, thinking people.
>
>Should the same concern be felt for someone proclaiming a 'correct'
>interpretation of an alchemical text?
>
>My question, I then suppose, is something like this:
>
>
>
> Are alchemical texts recipes or poems (or a unique
fusion
>of the two) ?
>
>
> thanks, xero.
>
The Alchemical texts should be classified into several catagories.

Some of them are recipies and scientific observations written in a
toungue that would not get the writer burned at the stake.

Most of them are pure popy cock. Mindless dribble written simply to
get someone to buy them and make money.

Many are written by men so advanced in insanity by lead poisioning as
to be absurd.

Charlie


Sun Jan 28 17:19:37 1996
Subject: 0034 Questions for YOU ...

Date: Sun, 28 Jan 96 16:15:44 PST
From: lesage@mail.eclipse.co.uk (A.J.Le Sage)

I have alwasys been under the opinon that people only
blow themselves up by misunderstanding the message.

---------------Original Message---------------
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 07:14:40 -0800
From: subrider@ix.netcom.com (Charlie Richards )

Yes, there are those that can open the books and understand what the
writer was trying to say.

And yes, it is very, VERY, important to know what they are saying. We
are dealing with very toxic substances and explosive mixtures
sometimes. The further you go the more dangerous it is. There are
many accounts of Alchemists blowing themselves up.

Gun powder is the result of an Alchemist at work. The most prevelant
danger is the acids we use.

And YES there are those that have finished the Great Work.

Charlie


Mon Jan 29 09:28:36 1996
Subject: 0035 answers?, questions ...

Date: Sun, 28 Jan 96 14:07 PST
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"


At 17:24 96/01/28 +0000,ubrider@ix.netcom.com (Charlie Richards ) wrote:

>>
>The Alchemical texts should be classified into several catagories.
>
>Some of them are recipies and scientific observations written in a
>toungue that would not get the writer burned at the stake.
>
>Most of them are pure popy cock. Mindless dribble written simply to
>get someone to buy them and make money.
>
>Many are written by men so advanced in insanity by lead poisioning as
>to be absurd.
>
>Charlie


Thank you Charlie for clarifiing the writings of some. The trick is to be
able to determine which is which. But it is a futher reminder that each
piece of information that one receives must be tested against all the
information that you have received before. Only then can one determine
whether to acept the information or reject it.

Norm


Mon Jan 29 09:30:14 1996
Subject: 0036 Questions for YOU ...

From: "Jason Wentzell (bsquare Consulting Inc.)"
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 15:25:42 -0800


I don't have web access here at work but I believe that Tom's web page cited
references (when I looked at it a ~month ago)...

that would be "http://www.nucleus.com/watchman"

"Iron loss through menstration is a blessing in disguise."

And so is donating blood (the modern form of blood-letting). ; )

I haven't gotten around to it myself (yet) but I've noticed a general
improvement just by taking anti-oxidants (started two weeks ago).

-Jason

(note: I'll be out of town [and off email] for a week as of Monday (1-29-96)
).

----------
From: Alchemy forum[SMTP:alchemypost@colloquium.co.uk]
Sent: Sunday, January 28, 1996 9:23 AM
To: alchemy-forum@colloquium.co.uk
Subject: 0030 Questions for YOU ...

Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 07:24:19 -0800
From: subrider@ix.netcom.com (Charlie Richards )

>Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 10:06:00 -0700 (MST)
>From: Tom Hennessy
>
>Who loves ya.
>Tom http://www.nucleus.com/watchman
>

Tom,
Where did you come up with the data to support this? I would love to
read it. It sounds so, well...

We now know that the greatest problem with too much iron in men is
heart failure. That is why women have such a low rick of heart attack
when compared to men. Iron loss through menstration is a blessing in
disguise.

Charlie


Mon Jan 29 09:31:43 1996
Subject: 0037 Aurum potabile

Date: Sun, 28 Jan 96 17:48 PST
From: clpress@yelmtel.com (John Hill)


Does anyone know a reference that describes the method of making 'Aurum
Potible'? Or does anyone have a recipe?


Mon Jan 29 09:32:32 1996
Subject: 0038 answers?, questions ...

Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 21:02:00 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: 0033 answers?, questions ...


Charlie:

>The Alchemical texts should be classified into several catagories.

>Some of them are recipies and scientific observations written in a
>toungue that would not get the writer burned at the stake.

>Most of them are pure popy cock. Mindless dribble written simply to
>get someone to buy them and make money.

>Many are written by men so advanced in insanity by lead poisioning as
>to be absurd.

Which ones do you find worthwhile?

Regards,

- Peggy -


Mon Jan 29 09:35:08 1996
Subject: 0039 Questions for YOU ..

Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 20:19:49 -0700 (MST)
From: Tom Hennessy

On Sun, 28 Jan 1996, Alchemy forum wrote:

> Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 07:24:19 -0800
> From: subrider@ix.netcom.com (Charlie Richards )
>
> >Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 10:06:00 -0700 (MST)
> >From: Tom Hennessy
> >
> >
> >The whole thing with alchemy and the Bible is that they don't seem to
> >come together except by spirituality.
> >
> >I cannot find any mention of 'alchemy'.. in the Bible.
> >
> >Shhh.. personally I think that the 'alchemy'.. are herbologists,
> >pharmacists and the like who 'followed'.. the mystic path and
> therefore
> >became part of the 'antichrist'.. in the eyes of the church.
> >
> >Being considered 'in league with the devil' can be a hazard to your
> >health depending on what part of history you come from.
> >
> >Jesus never was too interested in .. cash. [gold]
> >
> >He was a bit interested in 'transmutation'.. though. :)
> >
> >Becoming the 'perfect'.. person.
> >
> >Transmutation by man upon himself is performed by the realization we
> are
> >not to harm a 'living'.. creature.
> >
> >This realization will bring .. vegetarianism. This vegetarianism
> brings a
> >decrease of 'iron'.. stores.. after a while.
> >
> >This lowering of the iron stores.. brings about a 'calmness'.
> >
> >When a child is born with 'high iron stores'.. they a quite likely
> also
> >to be born with 'cold heartedness'. This is when they cannot seem to
> feel
> >for the other person. They cannot put themselves in the other persons
> shoes.
> >
> >They are 'mean'. We become 'mean'.
> >
> >I know you don't believe me...
> >
> >As a girl though you should want to hear this. The number one result
> of
> >high iron stores is a malfunctioning liver. The number one result of a
>
> >malfunctioning liver is .. cysts in the reproductive organs of man and
> woman.
> >
> >"I will settle the barren woman in her home the mother of many."
> >
> >A promise women seem to take .. lightly. If only they would
> 'realize'..
> >they ..CAN.. be mothers. Unless the docs have cut everything away by
> now.
> >
> >Short walk from birth to death though.. so.. be happy.
> >
> >Hypogonadism : Men begin to grow breasts, lose body hair , testes
> recede
> >and they lose their fertility.
> >
> >Treatment? Bloodletting. Lowering of the iron stores bring these men
> back
> >to normal.
> >
> >Direct evidence of the result of our.. sin or more precisely our ..
> >'unknown sin'. IMHO :)
> >
> >"I will turn your men into women."
> >
> >Who loves ya.
> >Tom http://www.nucleus.com/watchman
> >
> >
>
> Tom,
> Where did you come up with the data to support this? I would love to
> read it. It sounds so, well...

TRUE.. go ahead say it out... LOUD

> We now know that the greatest problem with too much iron in men is
> heart failure. That is why women have such a low rick of heart attack
> when compared to men. Iron loss through menstration is a blessing in
> disguise.
>
> Charlie

Well I tell you it was a long , long road.

I put most of it into place as
I went along. Once you know the cause you can find the results. The
results of our 'sin'..can be directly examined by examining the
'symptoms'.. and disease accompanying a disease known as 'hemochromatosis'

In this disease people have a problem with their 'iron' absorption. Their
iron levels rise much faster than normal. They are hit in their early
years with all the diseases of old age.

Their iron levels rise quickly manifesting disease much earlier than the
rest of us.

They are the canaries.

If we now realize and accept the cause and then lower the iron stores
accordingly.. we can balance the body and it will run efficiently.

This balance brings about balance in the bodies.. chemistry.

No more reactive and halucengenic substances being created in our bodies.
Children born with high iron have a greater than average chance of being
Attention Deficit or minimal brain dysfunction. They have a hard time
concentrating for long periods of time, sit still, sleep or accept
routines. They have allergies and socio-psychopathic tendencies. Which is
the inability to actually 'feel'..for someone.

Strides with antioxidents are made in the field of nutrition with these
children.

Mainly the antioxidents because 'iron'oxidizes.

Too simple for some people.:)

The data came from many books. If you chase down the disease to a book or
an article or two you usually can make the connection to iron.

It seems
the oxidation of heavy metal in the body can cause a body to become
'acidic'.. and as any good .. alchemist .. knows.. acidity is a 'long
way'.. from mildly 'alkaline'.

They are just now in Medline .. stating that children are 'commonly'..
born in a state of acidosis and studies have shown definitely that when
this is the case they are 'terminal'.. or at the very least due for a
life time of 'problems'.

They also say... "we'd better 'bone our boys up on it'."
[laymans translation]

It seems the test is not .. that .. hard. It just requires a bit of 'time'.

Something it seems 'doctors' have .. little of. :)

This means .. bloodletting .. at birth?

Who loves ya.
Tom http://www.nucleus.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Mon Jan 29 09:39:28 1996
Subject: 0040 most of the way ...

Date: Sun, 28 Jan 96 22:33 WET

From: brew@lava.net (Anastasy Tynan)


>And will I tell you how, NO. Will I tell you how to get most of the
>way...YES.
>Charlie

Charlie:
Instead of everyone asking general questions, could you give us some
specific indications that would aid us in our pursuit of laboratory alchemy?
Do you consider the vegetable work helpful in pursuing the Great Work?
animal work?
If you were to weed out all the deadends, cul-de-sacs, and blinds-- what are
the essentials that are the most worthwhile? What are the three most
valuable written works, in your opinion.
Cheers,
Anastasy


Mon Jan 29 09:54:18 1996
Subject: 0041 Privacy on the alchemy forum

Now I have set up forum so that I repost the messages, and have also disabled the review command for list users, it is now possible to remove your E-mail address from the beginning of your post. This means that people cannot write direct to you.
Some people of course are quite happy to receive E-mail off-list as it were, however for those you want absolute privacy, please give the instruction "remove my E-mail address" as the very first line of your message (not at the end please - the VERY FIRST LINE.)

With my best wishes,

Adam McLean



Mon Jan 29 09:58:36 1996
Subject: 0042 Charlie's answer [0032]

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 20:50:03 +1000
From: a.browne@pgrad.unimelb.edu.au (xero)


>Although transmuting the elements is great fun, and is a sure way to
>riches, you will find if you get there...riches are not that great to
>have if you have emplimented the esoteric teaching into your life.


I am interested in this 'esoteric teaching'.
Is this contained in alchemical literature ?
Is it also perhaps echoed in mystical philosophies ?


>I am one step from the stone. One. I have all the necessary
>ingriedients and materials, but am unsure as to why I should proceed.

>I am not so sure I want to finish what I started so long ago. You see
>to get where I am you find that it may not be such a great idea to have
>something that powerful in your life.

>The greatest wealth to come from a life dedicated to Alchemy is
>understanding. And with that understanding you come to know that
>wealth for its own sake is an empty box.

>I gave it up once I had it. Not once, but three times have I gained
>what some say is the top...and just walked away from it. It is a
>shallow victory to gain success only to find that it is not what you
>really want. It is the striving to get there that is the key. For
>without striving, life really sucks. It is a flat line, no real ups,
>no real downs.


I am reminded of a Zen story.
It concerns a thief,
who desires more than anything the legendary magic sword,
capable of defeating any foe.

He entreats a Zen master to tell him the whereabouts of the sword.
The Zen master tells him he must undertake a regimen of spiritual exercises,
after which the magic sword will appear.
The thief performs the exercises set him by the master.
At their completion the magic sword appears.

At its appearance, and predisposed by his training,
the theif becomes wise, and no longer wants the sword.




--------------------------------------------------------
| |
| |
| xero of the planet earth |
| |
| ( aka Andrew Browne ) |
| |
| |
| a.browne@pgrad.unimelb.edu.au |
| |
| |
| NOTHING IS TOO BIG OR TOO SMALL |
| |
| EVERYTHING A SPECIALTY |
| |
--------------------------------------------------------


Mon Jan 29 10:51:40 1996
Subject: 0043 Questions for YOU ...

>ie. can anyone (especially anyone in the forum) open a renaissance
>alchemical text
>and be confident that they fully understand what they are reading?
>
>Is such a thing even possible?
>How important is not-knowing?
>Is a certain amount of ignorance important to an alchemical process?


Most alchemical literature can be understood, but only when one has read widely enough to be able to place the ideas into some kind of context. Alchemical literature is not immediately accessible to someone brought up in late 20th century culture, as we just do not read the signals of the symbols and ideas in the text as they would have been read by people brought up in the 16th and 17th century. The same applies to people educated in Western monotheistic Judeo-christian culture, trying to understand and appreciate Buddhism. It is not that it cannot be done, but that onhr>
Thu Jan 25 14:27:36 1996
Subject: 0001 Medicinal alchemy

Sorry we brought up a subject and then abandoned it for a few
One of the great problems with alchemy is that people have not read enough texts, or puzzled over all the nuances of alchemical symbolism. This is partly because some of the major texts remain untranslated and unpublished, but it also arises because people too easily lay down a text because they do not immediately understand it. The ideas and texts cannot always be simplified and made easily accessible, because the key ideas in a text are often in the details, or in a variation of an old idea, that is easy to overlook. Alchemical literature evolves, later writers quote from earlier texts, and they develop and rework the ideas of the previous generation of alchemists, so the subject is quite amenable to the normal methods of scholarly investigation.

Ignorance and naivete will not take one far in alchemy. Alchemy has at its core a traditional body of knowledge, and anyone interested in exploring alchemy must at the very least become familiar with a critical mass of textual material in order to grasp the essence of this tradition. One cannot really talk coherently on alchemy till one has done the work of reading ones way into the subject, and similarly one cannot naively appreciate practical alchemy - one must do the work of experimenting on substances, and have sufficient experience of how substances change and exhibit their properties in laboratory work, and how the various processes operate, before one can talk coherently about practical alchemy.

I find it difficult to believe that ignorance can ever be a positive quality.

We all have to live within the anti-intellectual current of the 1980's and 90's, but in time, with the perpective of history, this rejection of intellectual enquiry will be seen to lead nowhere. The alchemists thirsted for knowledge, they sought out all the materials, texts and ideas they could find. They did not reject knowledge or see ignorance as a means of pursuing alchemy.

Adam McLean



Mon Jan 29 11:44:09 1996
Subject: 0044 Druid alchemy

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 10:19:02 +0000
From: susan@terrain.demon.co.uk

>> According to Nichols, groves of Druid
>> alchemists are known to have existed around Oxford from about AD 800.

Jon Marshall asks,

>may i ask what sources he gives for this?
>As this is the earliest reference to alchemy in europe that i know of.

Well, of course, he doesn't give any sources!! Who knows where he got the
idea. Maybe from the 18th century Druid Revivalists, not the most reliable
sources. (But that in itself doesn't mean it's not true!) I'm hoping to
track down where the 18th c. blokes got the idea. Lewis Spence in 1901
mentions the legends in a quite deprecating way; by then, scholarship was
very much against the Romantic images of Druidry perpetrated by the
Revivalists, although there is no question that the Druids, since long
before Christ, had huge colleges in Britain and Brittany that had a 20 year
training program. But Ross Nichol's "sources" are most likely inner ones;
he was Chief of a Druid Order with a lineage going way back, and that has
an inner knowledge tradition that is very much alive.

Yours in peace, Susan.





? ! ? ! ? ! ? ! ? ! ? ! ? ! ? ! ? ! ? ! ? ! ? ! ? ! ? ! ? ! ? ! ?
T E R R A I N : T R A C K L E S S L A N D
? ! ? ! ? ! ? ! ? ! ? ! ? ! ? ! ? ! ? ! ? ! ? ! ? ! ? ! ? ! ? ! ?



Mon Jan 29 11:45:18 1996
Subject: 0045 Aurum potabile

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 22:00:28 +1000
From: a.browne@pgrad.unimelb.edu.au (xero)

>Date: Sun, 28 Jan 96 17:48 PST
>From: clpress@yelmtel.com (John Hill)
>
>
>Does anyone know a reference that describes the method of making 'Aurum
>Potible'? Or does anyone have a recipe?
>

Aurum is latin for gold.
'Potable gold' is usually cited as the ultimate product of the alchemical
process.

In this sense, every alchemical text probably describes its production,
and as for a recipe ...


--------------------------------------------------------
| |
| |
| xero of the planet earth |
| |
| ( aka Andrew Browne ) |
| |
| |
| a.browne@pgrad.unimelb.edu.au |
| |
| |
| NOTHING IS TOO BIG OR TOO SMALL |
| |
| EVERYTHING A SPECIALTY |
| |
--------------------------------------------------------


Mon Jan 29 11:59:00 1996
Subject: 0046 Aurum Potabile

Andrew Brown writes:-

>'Potable gold' is usually cited as the ultimate product of the alchemical
>process.

I think this is probably a rather too strong a generalisation. There are many facets to alchemy, and different writers had different goals. Alchemy cannot be simply reduced to a search for an 'Aurum potabile'.

There are 84 books on alchemy mentioning 'potabile' on the title page, and most of these date from the 17th century. There was an important work published at Cambridge in 1610 by Francis Anthonie 'Medicinae, chymicae, et veri potabilis auri assertio, ex lucubrationibus F. Anthonii'. This sparked off a controversy and a number of works were written either attacking or supporting Francis Anthony. This controversy was the source for much of the speculation on the 'Aurum potabile' in the 17th century.


Adam McLean


Mon Jan 29 15:18:58 1996
Subject: 0047 Alchemy font

From: "John E. Myers"
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 9:32:48 EST5EDT

Dear Friends,
I sent this before, but with the recent problems and changes, I
don't know if it ever got through.
Tesla had to leave but he asked me to pass on the following
information.
------------------

From: jnewman@hampshire.edu (Nikola Tesla)
Subject: Alchemical font
X-PMFLAGS: 34078848

I'm off the list now, so I'm just getting the last couple pieces of
undelivered mail from the listserv, and I got a mesage from you
regarding an alchemical font. I created one called Alchymie. Would you be so
kind as to tell the list that I would be happy to send it to anyone binhexed
if they send me a request including their platform type?

Thanks much,

-Schwah

jnewman@hampshire.edu
--------------------------------
John M. here.
The other font on the web can be found at
www.shareware.com/
or
ftp://ftp.sunet.se/pub/mac/umich/system.extensions/font/truetype/
agathodaimon.sit.hqx

Thanks.

J.E.M. / "All things come to * *
myersj@gactr.uga.edu / he who waits." * * * *
/ I have time. * * *
* * * *
* *




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Mon Jan 29 15:29:55 1996
Subject: 0048 more questions ...

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 96 09:07:05 CST
From: hill@ra.timeplex.com (dan hill ON RA SERVER)

Nice thoughts Charlie. Ok, please indulge my ignorance and give us
a few of the steps to gain your experience.

Most of the people studying Alchemy have no idea where to start. I have given up many times out of futility.


thanks,


Mon Jan 29 15:22:44 1996
Subject: 0049 Druid Alchemy

From: Gilbert Arnold
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 09:53:09 -0500

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
From: susan@terrain.demon.co.uk

>Dear Alchemists, does anyone know about the Alchemy of the Druids, known as
>Pheryllt or Feryllt? The word is from 'ffer' - Cymric for 'that which is solid' i.e.
>metal (>our words ferrous and so on).It is sometimes called
>'Calvyddyon Pheryllt', which implies chemistry as well as metallurgy. The
>subject is mentioned very briefly in several books I have, among them Ross
>Nichols' The Book of Druidry, Matthews' Encyclopedia of Celtic Wisdom,
>Philip Carr-Gomm's Elements of Druidry (Which says that legend tells of a
>city of Druid alchemists in Snowdonia, known as Emrys or Dinas Affaraon,
>'the city of higher powers'). According to Nichols, groves of Druid
>alchemists are known to have existed around Oxford from about AD 800.

>I would be grateful for any further information, or pointers to other
>resources.

>Yours in peace, Susan.


<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

The french Alchemists Solazaref wrote about Druid and Shamanic Alchemy
in Europe. However, he wrote in French. I do not mind doing a bit of
translation if this is intended for practical lab work.


Blessings,

+Gilbert


Mon Jan 29 15:24:26 1996
Subject: 0050 answers?, questions ...

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 96 09:00:22 CST
From: hill@ra.timeplex.com (dan hill ON RA SERVER)


On the subject of Alchemy and the Bible, I remember some of
Frater Albertus's students commenting that they began the
instruction in Salt Lake with readings from the Bible.

Now I do not mean that there are actual words like "Alchemy"
in the bible. But, the parables can be interpreted in many
ways if you have an imagination!

LVX