Alchemy Forum 1101-1150

From January 25th 1996, the Alchemy forum was restructured and the messages were sequentially numbered. This is an unedited extract of messages 1101-1150.
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Sat Jun 15 08:42:35 1996
Subject: 1101 Voynich Manuscript

Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 20:58:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Art Kunkin

>From: Tom Hennessy
>I am wondering if anyone knows a little about the Voynich Manuscript? A
>man named Levitov seemed to have come up with a 'cypher' for the work but I
>have not been able to find this translation. Did he ever completely finish
>the translation or did he just solve the cypher?
>It is supposed to be a Cathar manuscript called the 'Endura'.
>Tom

R Brustowicz has already sent you the bibliographic references for the Leo
Levitov book. I notice it's very expensive and I might work out a deal to
loan you my copy. Email me.

The earlier book I mentioned is by William Newbold, the first item below.
It would take me a long time to locate this in my archives.

As BR said, there is extensive information on the web. At the Lycos search
engine, I came across over 100 references. Here is some relevant
information:

Printed information sources

These sources contain the highlights; their bibliographies point to more
than you will ever want to know.

* Newbold, William Romaine. The Cipher of Roger Bacon. Edited with
foreword and notes by Roland Grubb Kent. Philadelphia: University of
Pennsylvania Press, 1928.

* Brumbaugh, Robert S. The World's Most Mysterious Manuscript.
Carbondale: Southern Illinois University Press, 1978. London:
Weidenfeld and Nicholson, 1977.

* D'Imperio, M. E. The Voynich Manuscript: An Elegant Enigma. Fort George
G. Meade, Maryland: National Security Agency, 1978. (Reprinted by
Aegean Park Press, Laguna Hills, California, c. 1980.)

* D'Imperio, M. E., editor. New Research on the Voynich Manuscript:
Proceedings of a Seminar, 30 November 1976. Privately printed pamphlet,
Washington, D.C., 1976.

* Jacques Guy. ``Statistical Properties of Two Folios of the Voynich
Manuscript.'' Cryptologia XV 1991.

* Jim Reeds. ``William F. Friedman's Transcription of the Voynich
Manuscript.'' Cryptologia XIX 1995. (A Postscript draft is available.)

The VMS lives in New Haven, Connecticut, in Yale University's Beinecke Rare
Book Room and Library, under the name of MS 408; its catalog entry can be
viewed on the net. Photocopies are available from Yale:

* A B&W microfilm of the VMS costs about $40.

* A wretched Xerox print of the microfilm costs about $40.

* Higher quality, higher priced glossy photographs and slides can be made
to order.

Judging from the illustrations I have seen from the Voynich Manuscript,
this is a work very much related to alchemy. "The World's Most Mysterious
Manuscript."
Cordially, Art Kunkin\
kunkin@cinenet.net

Sat Jun 15 08:42:50 1996
Subject: 1102 Voynich Manuscript

Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 00:19:35 -0500 (CDT)
From: John C. Merritt

> From: R. Brzustowicz
> There's a very nice big web site archiving the discussions of a Voynich
> mailing list frequented by sophisticated cryptographic and scholarly
> types. The consensus: despite many and conflicting claims, no one has
> ever figured out how to read the thing, or even if it can be read.
> R Brzustowicz (brz@u.washington.edu)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

What's the URL, please.

----------| John Merritt | beowulf@bga.com |---------

Sat Jun 15 08:42:57 1996
Subject: 1103 Ladder of Metals

Date: Sat, 15 Jun 96 01:56:30 -0000
From: photopro

> From: A'yin Da'ath
>And if conciousness manifest from organic material is the goal, what
>now?
>What are we? Are we discussing a hiher level of conciousness, and if so,
>how is this possible? Are there really levels of conciousness, and if
>so, what are they?
>The goal of alchemy is the transformation of base material into something
>higher, of a greater level. The questions arrise in that we do not know
>what it is a higher level of. Is it material? Is it spiritual? What are we
>attempting to accomplish?

Just as there is a ladder of metals rising from the gross to the sublime,
there is a rising on the planes of consciousness from the
gross to the sublime. They are different terms for discribing the same
PROCESS. J.C Webb is right in there describing the material worked on as
the Self. Yourself!
Wisa

"All there is, is Love."
"Truth is the order of the Universe"
Photopro@mint.net
Wisa

Sat Jun 15 08:43:03 1996
Subject: 1104 Drugs needed?

Date: Sat, 15 Jun 96 01:48:46 -0000
From: photopro

>>For those out their who think that "drugs" are not needed, I would suggest

>I don't think psychedelics are necessarily needed. They might help open
>doors for some and help them progress faster. They might freak others out.
>IMO its best up to the individual to decide about whether or not to use
>them. IMO meditation and such will eventually yield the same results.
>Regards,
> Peggy

I agree with Peggy's total statement wholeheartedly. Meditation gets the
High and is more permanent with beneficial results like a great sense of
well-being that is comparable to the after- glo- on of sex but which
lasts longer and renews you... ie. brings back strength instead of
putting out vitality.
Wisa

Photopro@mint.net

Sat Jun 15 08:43:12 1996
Subject: 1105 Music

Date: Sat, 15 Jun 96 01:32:22 -0000
From: photopro

In addition to my own list, preceeding this one, note the below

Much of great classical music is "inspired". We have to hear it and
resonate to it, therein lies the Hermetic value. However, Mahlers 8th
Symphony, Beethovens 5th, 7th & 9th are particularly corresponded to
mysticism. Also Brahms Violin Concerto (2nd movement). And as I asked a
knowledgeable musican and hermetic philosopher for this list, I am having
trouble reading the last which looks like Boito-Mephistopheles
Prologue(?)in Heaven.
My friend wrote it in the dark with little light & without his
glasses on so this is the best that I can interpret this suggestion.

Wisa

Sat Jun 15 08:43:20 1996
Subject: 1106 Who is You?

Date: Sat, 15 Jun 96 02:50:03 -0000
From: photopro

Whether we call it psychology or philososphy or alchemy It is
Transcendence, Transformation, change, SPIRIT we are talking about. And
if one thinks that s/he can be successful and not consider the symbolic
true meanings of Alchemy s/he is wasting time with materials and their
transformation. For it is the "YOU" that we are talking about and "YOU"
that is being transformed (or not!) Those who know this Truth are not
lost in the maze of materiality. Shakepeare said it all when he said
"Awake, awake."

Wisa

And this from a Taurus who is fighting her way through and not always
winning!

Sat Jun 15 08:46:48 1996
Subject: 1107 Where to begin?

Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 15:43:30 -0700
From: AW

> Its really all about Your piece of the "creative" Godhead and the
> harmonizing and rectification of Your Spirit, which when perfected can
> accelerate perfection in the other kingdoms ! (via projection). Get around
> all the multitudinous symbols of Alchemy and
> build the new white stone with Your name written on it !
> Logodox@Sound.Net

Well said. I think some of the writings are far too complex. True
wisdom is what we should seek! Just give me a formula and some exercises
and set me to work!

Sat Jun 15 08:46:57 1996
Subject: 1108 Science/magic

Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 15:48:22 -0700
From: AW

> Always for power eh ? You may not be able to imagine the state of
> consciousness of a being (Human or otherwise) that has transcended the
> "separateness" caused by the falseness of EGO. While something may be
> nearly universally true, nearly isn't 100%.
> Read any book on Buddhism or Tao TE Ching for examples.
> Logodox

Again, I agree, the powers will turn and deceive.

Sun Jun 16 11:11:12 1996
Subject: 1109 Music

From: Matthew Phillips
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 02:06:09 -0700

Douwe wrote:
>Maybe you can suggest some music performed by some Gnostic church or
>some other music written by an alchemist, or whatever.
>I am interested in any kind of suggestion regarding this subject.

Matthew replies:
Psychick Television and Genesis P.-Orridge have an enormous and rich
goldmine of work which often has alchemical imagery. See in particular
the "Descending" release as it has interesting liner notes on alchemy.
Other releases by the aforementioned are usually not so obviously and
directly addressing alchemical concerns, but after having soaked myself
in the many works by these artists I can safely say that they are not
unaware of alchemy. Others I can think of off the top of my head are
Coil and Current 93. Of course none of these may please you but they are
in fact all publishing work which does occassionally address the subject
of alchemy.

yours,
matthew phillips

Thu Jun 20 14:51:19 1996
Subject: 1110 FRENCH:Peladan

Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 15:04:02 +0200
From: "J.Dauge"

>From: Claude Gagnon
>I will look if I still have the adress of the Society devoted to
>Peladan's thought. Maybe our french subscribers, like Mr. Tetard, could
>help us.
>Claude Gagnon

Je n'ai pas d' information sur une association d' etudes des oeuvres de Peladan.
Par contre si vous le desirez je peux pr�parer un petit resume sur sa vie et
son oeuvre.

Amicalement
-----------------

J.Dauge : jed@worldnet.fr

Thu Jun 20 11:32:02 1996
Subject: 1111 New service at the BN

Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 10:14:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brigitte Donvez

Hi

I read a few days ago in a French paper that the Bibliotheque Nationale
in Paris is offering a new service. They are currently mmoving all their
books from the old (rue Richelieu) to the new (rue Tolbiac) location and
have take the opportunity to scan most of the old manuscripts to have
them on microfilm, diskette or CD-ROM.

They are offering- to foreign researchers- paper copies of these
manuscripts. The price per page varies between 1.20 to 1.50 FF (roughly
23 to 30 cents a page). The article also indicate that these manuscripts
have been scanned so copies can be sent through modem or the Internet.
The Bibliotheque Nationale uses something called Numeris.

It is a very succint article. However, it is specified that copies of
manuscripts can be ordered through:
Le Livre a la Carte
Attn. Henri Le More
14, rue Soleillet
75020 PARIS
Phone: ++33-1-40-33-79-81

and that this service will only be available until the Summer of 1997
(when the move is scheduled to be complete).

I do not have more information but this opportunity might interest some
of you.

Brigitte Donvez

Thu Jun 20 11:32:08 1996
Subject: 1112 Tarocchi del Mantegna

Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 16:14:34 -0400
From: RawnClark@aol.com

Thank you George for your summary of the Trojani book. If you get it
translated, will you be so kind as to pass on further info from it?
Especially more info on how he relates it to alchemy.

To me, the most startling difference between the Tarocchi del Mantegna (TdM)
and the more standard 78-card Tarot (78T), is to be found in their basic
structure. The 78T has the following structure:
22paths+40elements+16court=78. The focus of the Major Arcana, is the Paths
between Sephiroth; of the Minor Arcana -- the Tree in the Four
Worlds/Elements; and of the Court Cards -- the Elements/Personages in the
Four Worlds.

The TdM on the other hand, is divided into 5 sets of 10. The final image,
"A50 -- Prima Causa", explains the TdM's structure. The first 4 sets of 10
(groups "E,D,C, & B") represent the sphere of Malkuth, and the final set of
10 (group "A") represent, in sequence, the spheres of Yesod/Luna through Ayin
Soph/Prima Causa.

Group "E" shows the 10 Sephiroth (Malkuth through Kether) of Malkuth in
Assiah/ Elemental Earth, echoing a "400 Lights", Jacob's Ladder-ish,
schematic of the Tree. Consistent with this, group "D" represents the Tree
of Malkuth in Briah/Water; group "C", the Tree of Malkuth in Yetziah/Air; and
group "B", the Tree of Malkuth in Atziluth/Fire. {Note the sequence of
Earth/"E", Water/"D", Air/"C", Fire/"B". This is a more Hermetic, Elemental
sequence than a Qabbalistic, Four Worlds sequence, since it doesn't follow
the IHVH pattern.}

These first 40 images of the TdM share a stucture similar to the Minor Arcana
of the 78T, but the focus of both is slightly different. The groups "E"
through "B" of the TdM depict the Tree specifically as it occurs in Malkuth
(multiplied by the Worlds/Elements); whereas, the Minor Arcana of the 78T
depicts the entire Tree in the Four Worlds/Elements, inclusive of but not
specific to, Malkuth. Thus the Minor Arcana is more universally general and
the TdM's groups "E" through "B" are more specific to the sphere of Malkuth.

The 78T's Major Arcana breaks down into: 3 Element cards, 7 Planetary cards,
and 12 Zodiacal cards. Group "A" of the TdM can be stretched in meaning to
encompass the Planetary and Elemental cards of the Major Arcana (although the
TdM's focus is not upon Paths per se, but upon Spheres), but leaves out the
Zodiacal aspect. I wonder though, if the Zodiacal cards are not salted
throughout the first 4 sets of 10, in the TdM?

I'm not certain how or if the *basic structure* of the TdM relates to alchemy
(though it's quite clea

Thu Jun 20 11:32:08 1996
Subject: 1113 Courses in Alchemy

Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 22:19:56 +0200
From: Arianne Wopereis

Does anyone know if there are courses being held in Europe this summer.
I'm very interested in Alchemy and I've done my first experiments with
herb elixers.

thank you,

Sebastian Klinkhamer
E mail Arianw@pi.net

Thu Jun 20 11:32:16 1996
Subject: 1114 Music

Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 22:58:38 +0200 (MET DST)
From: douwe

I am really grateful for all the valuable ideas regarding 'hermetically'
inspired music, and I hope that even many more ideas (either classical or
modern) will come.

What my own music collection is concerned, I thought about some other music
which can be classified as mystical too...like a lot of music by Clause
Debussy , or Eric Satie, who both had something to do with the French
salon-rosicrucianism (of P�ledan).
This could be added to the small list which I posted initially.

I have heard of Gnostic music remaining (as text and music) from the
Carthars of the south of France, I wonder if anyone knows something about
this or about performances, especially because I have a passion for early music.

Further I wouldn't mind to know more about other performances of the Atlanta
Fugiens, because, I am sorry to say this about the Godwin production,... I
think it sounds too clean, maybe even an other (life) recording might make
the difference.

I am open for any other suggestions by anyone, about any kind of music.

douwe.

darus@xs4all.nl

Thu Jun 20 11:32:16 1996
Subject: 1115 Isaac J. Hollandus

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 00:13:35 +0200 (MET DST)
From: douwe

I have been looking for the books by Hollandus, and have tried to contact Mr
Nintzel for this, but this seemed to be in vain because even after more then
half a year I still didn't have any reply.
Now my question is if there is any way to get these books to Europe, or if
anyone knows of a bookdealer who handles these books, so that it will be
eazy to order it directly via the book dealer.

Hopefully someone knows something.

douwe.

darus@xs4all.nl

Thu Jun 20 11:32:16 1996
Subject: 1116 Tarocchi de Mantegna

From: "John Chas Webb"
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 12:49:53 -1000

| Trojani speaks to tarot's cultural context, and seems to be relating it
| somewhat at least to alchemy. But my French is poor. Can someone with
| better command take it on?
|
| -G.Leake

---------------------------------
Although I am not familiar with the particular tarot deck which you
refer to, I can, however, share some general information regarding the Tarot.
Perhaps this will give you some keys to decode the Tarocchi de Mantegna and enable
you to see how it specifically relates to alchemy.

The Tarot is a "closed system" unless one is initiated. Three of the major arcana keys are related specifically to initiation and one of the three is the key to self initiation. Please note that there are multifarious interpretations for all of the major arcana and that the following descriptions are introduced here to shed light on the matter of initiation.

1) The Star card is the card of divine illumination. It represents spontaneous illumination. An example of this is the illumination of Jesus at the time of his
baptism by John. (Voices came from the heavens, bells rang, lights went on and doves
decended etc., etc.) OK? On a more mundane level it can mean a personal revelation, an "ahh ha" experience.
2) The Pope or Hierophant represents the seeker studying under the guidance of a master. To "yoke" or indenture one's self to an accomplished adept.
3) The Hanged Man is the KEY OF SELF INITIATION. It is the entry
point into the mysteries where the Tarot stops being a philosophical "item" and begins to
reveal itself as a dynamic, organic powerhouse of a)transformation b) transmutation, and c)
[as a bonus] it elevates one's experience of life to mythical proportions (gradually).

If you investigate the symbols used on the Hanged Man key (and also the
shapes that the human forms are placed in) you will find a virtual library of alchemical
symbolism. (This is especially true in the Rider-Waite Cards.)
There is, however, a MAJOR difference between classical Alchemy and The
Great Work as it is depicted in the Tarot. Classical alchemy is performed in a "scientific"
context in which experiments are conducted which gradually produce powerful impressions upon the mind and sub-conscious of the practitioner. The Tarot presents alchemical
information depicted in pictures which (when decoded) reveal the "inner"
landscape (the psychological structure) of human consciousness.
The numerological attributes of the Tarot will yield no valuable information if you are trying to detect a sequence. (The logical sequence breaks down after number 4) However, the significance of individual numbers (numerology) yields a treasure trove of esoteric information.

Both the Alchemist and the Magician of the Tarot are engaged in making
Gold! To understand more fully how this can be possible one must distinguish between the spiritual and material definitions of the word "GOLD".
1) Materially speaking "gold" is a precious and valuable metal.
2) Spiritually speaking "gold" represents the original condition of
our uncorrupted nature which can ALWAYS be purified and restored.

So, where the Alchemist requires a laboratory, the Magician of the
Tarot requires a temple. On an esoteric level both of these "workplaces"
are symbols of the Self.

Yipes !

John Chas Webb

Thu Jun 20 11:32:16 1996
Subject: 1117 Music

Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 21:00:05 +0000 (MULTINET_TIMEZONE)
From: Felt Lair

You might find the music of Gurdjieff (or Grudjieff-de Hartmann) of
interest. Should be able to find it through any comprehensive music
catalog.

It is transcriptions of music Gurdjieff picked up in his travels in the
East and mideast and seems to qualify as what Gurdjieff calls "objective
art" i.e. art which is described as art consciously created with an
understanding of cosmic laws and calculated to produce a definite
response in the receiver, not a bundle of his/her subjective and
automatic responses. It acts through an individual's feeling center in
specific ways.

Regards,

rialto

Thu Jun 20 11:32:16 1996
Subject: 1118 Plant mutations/communication

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 02:39:42 -0400
From: KEEPERH2O

>For those out their who think that "drugs" are not needed, I would suggest
>that they re-evaluate that position.

I came to the reluctant (at first) conclusion some time ago that "drugs" were
not only needed but *essential*. Of course every generalization such as this
will be rife with exceptions as our personal chemistry varies enough so that
the input of our senses are not the same to all of us (or we would all like
vanilla ice cream best). Speaking for myself, I needed to be shaken at the
very foundation of my being in this world to see some of the things I know my
father never saw, to his dying day. In "The Only Dance There Is", Ram Dass
reflects upon the value of LSD to his personal investigations. Later, in
describing his broad experience as a teacher of yoga, he was impressed often
that those students who "got it" quickest and best -- if not at all -- were
those with some previous experience with "drugs". He theorized that their
experiences gave them a better sense of what they were looking for. One of
my favorite ways to describe the issue is to raise the analogy of trying to
explain the color orange to a person who has been blind from birth, or the
flavor of a banana to someone who has never tasted one.

Love & Light!

Keeper

Thu Jun 20 11:32:16 1996
Subject: 1119 Music

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 06:59:20 -0400
From: Kate Ryan"

To add to the message on the music of Georges I. Gurdjieff, I obtained
my CD's from the Bodhi Book Store , L.A, California.
The Complete Piano Music of Geoges I. Gurdjieff and Thomas De
Hartmann;Cecil Lytle, Pianist.Volume 1, Seekers of the Truth, Volume 2,
Reading of a Sacred Book, and Volume 3, Words for a Hymn to the Sun .
Gurdjieffs friends I believe, worked on the association of music and
plants - vibrations.

Kate Ryan

Thu Jun 20 11:32:16 1996
Subject: 1120 Music

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 12:50:49 +0100
From: William Hollister

In the discussion of Alchemical music, I would look less to modern sources
than to Renaissance and Baroque music, after sitting through a good dose of
the Troubadours.

Robert Fludd, has a wonderful, oft republished image of the "monochordum
mundi," depicting the elements, the planets and the angels on a single
string, tretched along a violin neck. A hand emerging from a cloud is
adjusting the pitch. It is a very compelling illustration. (Utriusque
cosmi maioris scilicet et minoris, metaphysica, physica atque technica
historia. Oppenhem and Frankfurt. 1617.)

In addition, I am intrigued by the music of Krystof Harant, who worked in
the very alchemically minded court of Archduke Ferdinand of Tyrol. And then
in Prague in the Court of Rudolf II. This puts him among that very
interesting intellectual circle that includes Tycho Brahe and Arcimboldo.
His very brief compositional repertory includes a six-part motet on the text
of Psalm 125 he wrote in 1598 while on a pilgrimage to Jerusalem. Some of
his work was published in 1604 in a collection of Marian compositions known
as "Rosetum Marianum."

Harant was one of 27 noblemen executed in Prague on midsummer, 1621 in one
of the events that sparked of the thirty years' war and ended, as Francis
Yates argues, the era of the Rosecrucian enlightenment. Significantly he
was the third to be excecuted, just after Vaclav Budovec z Budova, one of
the known Bohemian alchemists associated with Rudolf II.

On the execution stand he referred to the event as a "sorrowful
theatre...how many foreign lands have I traversed, what adversities have I
met, for many days staying without as much as a single crumb of bread;
once I even found myself all covered by sand, and on all those occasions
was I helped by the sweet lord God; while now, in my own beloved native
country, I am to die having committed no crime. Lord, forgive my enemies."

His work is included on a CD with an anonymous piece called "Cancer
Cancrisat-Miraris Mundum." Multisonic a.s. music 1994. Michael Consort,
conducted by Petr Danek.

Thu Jun 20 11:32:16 1996
Subject: 1121 Music

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 07:03:39 -0400
From: Lionel D. Perrin

A few words about the bands Matthew mentioned:

Psychic TV: Genesis P. Orridge is a great admirer of Aleister Crowley.
GPO's publishing house has published many books on the subject and his
"Temple of the Psychic Youth" is a modern day version of the OTO.

Coil: Their use of alchemy is part of their gay imagery. They used to be
Derek Jarman's best friends. They did together a movie entitled "Angelic
Conversations" featuring Shakespeare's Sonnets. DJ also directed "Jubilee"
where one could see Elizabeth I, helped by John Dee and Ariel, visiting
Thatcher's England. But that was more a social critique than anything else..

As for Death in June and its multiple avatars (Current 93, Sol Invictus,
etc.), they are crypto-nazi neo-pagans... and are linked with the US Nazi
Party. They do often perform in SS gears...

My best bet for mystical, if not alchemical, music would be the Lithunian
mystical composer Arvo Paert whose sacred orthodox music has definitely
something special. AP regularly alternates 5 years retreat periods and 5
years work periods. He has, at least, some discipline.

--
Lionel Perrin/Brigitte Donvez
aw243@freenet.carleton.ca

Thu Jun 20 11:32:16 1996
Subject: 1122 Music

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 14:46:11 +0100 (BST)
From: D.R.Williams

Being only a novice, but a lover of music perhaps the following? Some of
Elgar's more lyrical pieces, such as his "Introduction and Alegro for
Strings, or his more serious "Cello Concerto" are both deeply spiritually
moving, and really help me to attune with nature!

> Much of great classical music is "inspired". We have to hear it and
> resonate to it, therein lies the Hermetic value. However, Mahlers 8th
> Symphony, Beethovens 5th, 7th & 9th are particularly corresponded to
> mysticism. Also Brahms Violin Concerto (2nd movement)
>Wisa

Thu Jun 20 11:32:16 1996
Subject: 1123 Plant mutations/communication

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 14:51:25 +0100 (BST)
From: D.R.Williams

>On Sat, 15 Jun 1996, Alchemy forum wrote:
>happiness does not sell products???
Really? Then you can't have viewed many television adverts over the last
few decades!
Dave Williams.

> Anything which produces euphoria in Western "culture" is immediately made
> illegal. The "reason" for this is because happiness does not sell products.
> People buy products because our culture links them to yielding happiness.
> This is the dilemma of the material mind. Western culture produces "hungry
> ghosts" who seek one material "thrill" after another. A consuming madness.
> Every ancient culture has used psychotropic substances. In the hands of
> the disciplined these substances are sacrament. In the hands of the profane
> they become addictive tools of destruction.
> Peace,
> John Chas Webb

Thu Jun 20 11:32:16 1996
Subject: 1124 Where to begin?

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 10:00:23 -0500
From: Rick Grimes

> Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 15:43:30 -0700
> From: AW
> > Its really all about Your piece of the "creative" Godhead and the
> > harmonizing and rectification of Your Spirit, which when perfected can
> > accelerate perfection in the other kingdoms ! (via projection). Get around
> > all the multitudinous symbols of Alchemy and
> > build the new white stone with Your name written on it !
> > Logodox
>
> Well said. I think some of the writings are far too complex. True
> wisdom is what we should seek! Just give me a formula and some exercises
> and set me to work!

You might try to find a copy of Frater Albertus' "Alchemical Handbook".
it is also a good place to startyour journey.
RG

Thu Jun 20 11:32:16 1996
Subject: 1125 Apology to matthew phillips

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 08:25:09 -0700
From: Tim Scott

Dear Friends: In my irritation and general grumpiness at "ayindaath's"
recent post, I carelessly lumped matthew phillips with him in a tirade
I posted to the list in response.

Fortunately, Mr Phillips wrote to me and, demonstrating a restraint
and politeness I didn't deserve, pointed out that I was in error in
assuming that his position was the same as ayindaath. I apologize to
him and to the group for the flame.

(But my assessment of ayindaath's position remains the same.)

A good lesson to me, who should know better, to be CAREFUL when attributing
statements to other people on the list.

Best regards to all...

Tim Scott

Thu Jun 20 11:32:16 1996
Subject: 1126 Homunculus

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 11:12:46 -0600
From: fisher

One wonders where Paracelsus developed his concept of the homunculus. Note
that the Kan and Li practices predating Paracelsus are too close in nature
to the Western concept to be dismissed. Adept oriental alchemists developed
sophisticated purification and self-intercourse techniques which resulted in
the formation of the an immortal fetus/Immortal Spirit. Practices such as
fusion of the elements, the microcosmic orbit, cultivation of sexuality,
bone marrow cleansing, meridian (acupuncture channels of energy/Qi),
steaming and creation of the Pearl all culminated in the visualization
(intent) of the immortal higher self foetus at the top of the head. The Yi
leads the Qi. That is, the ability to focus with intention, clear thought
and will results in manifestation. The idea of change in blood chemistry
seems related to bone marrow cleansing (blood cells are produced in the
marrow). By manipulating them at will it follows that a change will occur-a
kind of radiant inner shift to quantum level alignment. The cells are
magnetized, all lined up and capable of increased conductivity. As humans
we start off as lead, become malleable copper and with the Great Work,
become as gold. For Taoist the higher immortal self is the Philosopher's
Stone.

Thu Jun 20 11:32:24 1996
Subject: 1127 Pegala Hermala

From: Martin
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 19:21:40 +-200

I look for some information about the plant Pegala Hermala and its use in alchemy

Martin from Czech

Thu Jun 20 11:32:24 1996
Subject: 1128 Tarocchi del Mantegna

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 14:08:39 -0500
From: George Randall Leake III

>From: RawnClark@aol.com
>
>Thank you George for your summary of the Trojani book. If you get it
>translated, will you be so kind as to pass on further info from it?
> Especially more info on how he relates it to alchemy.

*sure.

>To me, the most startling difference between the Tarocchi del Mantegna (TdM)
>and the more standard 78-card Tarot (78T), is to be found in their basic
>structure. The 78T has the following structure:
>22paths+40elements+16court=78. The focus of the Major Arcana, is the Paths
>between Sephiroth; of the Minor Arcana -- the Tree in the Four
>Worlds/Elements; and of the Court Cards -- the Elements/Personages in the
>Four Worlds

*well of course some of the latter (linkage of the Sephira to the trumps
and so on) is wholly a modern innovation. One wonders whether sticking to
that might be somewhat limiting (even though with its reorganization, or,
perhaps, revisualization in these terms does have great value vis a vis
alchemical study), as we lose sight of contemporary correspondences from
the time these Tarots were created (whether Mantegna, Marseilles,
Visconti-Sforza, and so on) with alchemical emblems and conceits present in
the art and literature of the era.

>The TdM on the other hand, is divided into 5 sets of 10. The final image,
>"A50 -- Prima Causa", explains the TdM's structure. The first 4 sets of 10
>(groups "E,D,C, & B") represent the sphere of Malkuth, and the final set of
>10 (group "A") represent, in sequence, the spheres of Yesod/Luna through Ayin
>Soph/Prima Causa.

*interesting. Of course there's also the explanation that its simply
another version in playing card form of the Triumph or Trionfi paradigm.

>The 78T's Major Arcana breaks down into: 3 Element cards, 7 Planetary cards,
>and 12 Zodiacal cards.

*well, yes, that is if you're making a link to the 22 letters of the Hebrew
alphabet

>I'm not certain how or if the *basic structure* of the TdM relates to alchemy
>(though it's quite clea

*oops. Looks like you got cut off!

-G.Leake, 512-471-9117 taliesin@mail.utexas.edu

Thu Jun 20 11:32:24 1996
Subject: 1129 Search

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 14:02:44 -0600
From: fisher

>From: Andy
>Any suggestions for learning to transfer the
>consciousness? Is there an Alchemical aid?

Andy,
So many ways to transfer consciousness. First step in most
techniques is to leave your ego at its door like a pair of shoes. Buddhist
methods are well documented, particularly in Dzog Chen and Vajrayana.
Become the sky or emptiness first, then transfer to the chosen path. In
Western alchemical traditions proceeding through the 12 alchemical stages in
the lab/mind (calcination, purification, fermentation, etc.) becoming each
one of them, becoming all of them, becoming none of them is a good
beginning. Tarot loving alchemists may want to back themselves right into
the chosen cards image and Hebraic letter & associated correspondences and
become it. Buddhist alchemists become the deity that represents the
consciousness desired. All successful alchemists are Ultimate Chameleons
capable of shifting their assemblage points.At 08:51 AM 6/15/96 +0000, you
wrote:

Thu Jun 20 11:32:24 1996
Subject: 1130 Tarocchi of Mantegna

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 14:51:06 -0500
From: George Randall Leake III

>| -G.Leake
>| Trojani speaks to tarot's cultural context, and seems to be relating it
>| somewhat at least to alchemy. But my French is poor. Can someone with
>| better command take it on?

>From: "John Chas Webb"
> Although I am not familiar with the particular tarot deck which you
>refer to, I can, however, share some general information regarding the Tarot.
>Perhaps this will give you some keys to decode the Tarocchi de Mantegna and
>enable you to see how it specifically relates to alchemy.
>
> The Tarot is a "closed system" unless one is initiated.
[edited for brevity]

*John, I appreciate your sincerity, effort and intent, but this was not
what I was asking about. I am asking, in precise terms, whether someone who
has better French reading skills than I has read the Trojani book in
question. And if such a person would be so kind as to give us a thumbs
up/down, or better yet detailed summary.

*as for Tarot, there are more appropriate forums such as the newsgroup
alt.tarot in which to discuss these niceties. The relevance here is that
Trojani, whether its arbitrary or not, asserts links between alchemy and
tarot.

-G.Leake, 512-471-9117 taliesin@mail.utexas.edu

Thu Jun 20 11:32:24 1996
Subject: 1131 Peladan

From: seybold
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 16:25:03 EDT"

> >From: Claude Gagnon
> >I will look if I still have the adress of the Society devoted to
> >Peladan's thought. Maybe our french subscribers, like Mr. Tetard, could
> >help us.
> >Claude Gagnon
>
> Je n'ai pas d' information sur une association d' etudes des oeuvres de
> Peladan.
> Par contre si vous le desirez je peux preparer un petit resume sur sa vie
> et son oeuvre.
> J.Dauge

Mr Dauge,

I would be interested in reading about Peladan. Thanks for your effort.

John Seybold (seybold@apollo.hp.com)

Thu Jun 20 14:51:20 1996
Subject: 1132 Plant mutations/communication

From: John Chas Webb
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 10:38:05 -1000

>For those out their who think that "drugs" are not needed, I would suggest
>that they re-evaluate that position.
>Keeper

I have experimented with mind expanding substances and I am in agreement with you. As far as LSD is concerned it surely is (was) a powerful tool for opening a window into other potential levels of "reality". My most meaningful "controlled substance" experience was with extascy. It was initially marketed as an anti-histamine in Sweeden (I believe) and immediately taken off the market whenit was revealed that it was producing "life altering" experiences. (The legal complications could have been, I'm sure, quite resounding.)
"Bad experiences" with psychotropic substances can almost be virtually eliminated if they are not used in conjunction with anything else. It is best to "do" a one day fruit or vegetable juice fast before "conducting the experiment". Also it is best to experiment with these substances in a natural setting (beach, forest, etc.). It is also STRONGLY recommended that one does not eat during the experiment. If you "must" eat, then eat some fresh fruit.
If there is a need for these psychotropic substances it is because our cultural diet is quite toxic and qradually erodes our more sensitive faculties. I have gradually transformed my eating habits to include (exclusively) organic grains, fruits and vegetables. Once the body is detoxified from all of the chemical pollutants that are used in our food chain a natural high level of wellbeing is the result and there is no further need for "drugs".
I have understated the global dilemma as far as chemical pollution is concerned. The mystics and alchemists of the 17th century did not have to contend with chemical fertilizers and chemical additives bombarding their bodies in large quantities and varieties. The cumulative effect of these substances has produced global pollution of streams, rivers, oceans and adversely effects ALL life forms. So, for contemporary alchemists, it is highly recommended to engage one's self in restoring not only the consciousness but also the "container" (the body).
So, if I may summarize the emphasis behind this writing it is that "drugs" are the response of the collective consciousness to serious chemical pollution in our ecosystem. They give us glimpses of our natural condition which is a feeling of wellbeing which pours forth from the soul.
If you wish to feel really great and are inclined not to experiment with controlled substances then just simply say "no" to chemical fertilizers, chemical pesticides, chemical "medication", chemical hair spray, chemical deodorant, chemical footspray, chemically treated drinking water, chemical perfumes, chemical blah blah blah. ( Please excuse the dramatic emphasis ). AND just gradually create a lifestyle that is as close to natural as you can get it to be. The rewards are very grand and promote a superior foundation for all of us who are engaged in The Great Work!

Blessings to all,

John Chas Webb

Thu Jun 20 11:32:24 1996
Subject: 1133 Music

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 14:23:46 -0700
From: tim scott

> From: Felt Lair
> You might find the music of Gurdjieff (or Grudjieff-de Hartmann) of
> interest. Should be able to find it through any comprehensive music
> catalog.

We are veering pretty far from the subject of alchemy (yet again!) but
since this subject was brought up, and I just wrote some email about it,
I would like to submit the following:

These are the titles of the CDs of Gurdjieff/de Hartmann music, played by
pianist Cecil Lytle. The label is Celestial Harmonies and their address is
PO Box 30122 Tucson AZ 85751

Vol 1: "Seekers of the Truth" 1987 CEL 020/21 14020-2 (recorded in Muenchen)

Vol 2: "Reading of a Sacred Book" 1988 CEL 028/29 14028-2 (recorded in SanDiego)

Vol 3: "Words for a Hymn to the Sun" 1990. 14035-2 (coincidentally, recorded
here in my home town of San Diego in 1989 (without my knowledge!))

I have sent a complimentary message to Dr Lytle thanking him for this music
and he responded graciously.

I recommend all people who are interested in Gurdjieff to listen to these
recordings.

They are still listed in the CD Connection online catalog. You can look
at it via www.cdconnection.com (I haven't been able to order from them in
some months, but was a satisfied customer in the past.)

Tim Scott

Thu Jun 20 11:32:24 1996
Subject: 1134 Music

From: Atheris
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 23:00:36 +0100 ( + )

Douwe wrote on 16th June:

>I am really grateful for all the valuable ideas regarding 'hermetically'
>inspired music, and I hope that even many more ideas (either classical or
>modern) will come.

One would need first of all to define what precisely is meant by
"hermetically" inspired music - if indeed it has any real meaning at all.
In Greek mythology Hermes was the messenger of the gods and the
guide of travellers. I assume that you mean hermetic in the sense of
derived or deriving from the Hidden Wisdom (whatever one chooses
to understand by that term, itself in need of definition).

There are many examples of music which apparently contain an
"inner" meaning. The greatest example is probably the opera The
Magic Flute by Mozart, a freemason, who wrote a considerable body
of masonic music. The Faust Symphony of Liszt, another freemason,
as also arguably the great B Minor Piano Sonata, are based on the
Faust-Mephistopheles legend, not the legend as given by Goethe, but
that of the Austro-Hungarian poet Nikolaus Lenau (and in any case
the Faust legend predates either). One might include also the works
of the theosophically inclined composer Alexander Scriabin, such
as Prometheus - The Poem of Fire, and perhaps his White and Black
Mass piano sonatas.

The list could go on, but does it really mean anything? True, the
symbolism in the Magic Flute will be recognisable and familiar to third
degree freemasons, but then it can hardly be doubted that other
examples of the very greatest music, such as Bach's Mass in B Minor,
or Beethoven's Missa Solemnis, or the Liszt Sonata, may be called
transcendental in the sense of inspired by something-greater-than-I,
and may with more justification merit the description "hermetic" than
the musical fumblings of a third-rate composer such as Satie.

Adrian Monk
atheris@btinternet.com

Thu Jun 20 11:32:24 1996
Subject: 1135 Search

From: John Chas Webb
Date: Saturday, June 15, 1996 11:08 AM

| | I like this John. Any suggestions for learning to transfer the
| | consciousness? Is there an Alchemical aid?
|
| From Andy
|

Yes. You can begin by conducting small daily "experiments". Your personal world then becomes your laboratory for alchemical evolution. The purpose of the experiments is to cause a slight "dis-association" between you and your physical body (to distill the subtle from the gross). The following suggestions are "seeds" that can encourage you to personalize your own experimentation. Please note that the initial purpose of the exercises is to break up patterns which have solidified in your consciousness (ie. to make you more mercurial).
1) Pretend for one whole day that you are a king. While pretending, notice what resistance may "come up" from your old patterns and take some steps to move past it. (If any heads are to be chopped off make sure it's your own!)
2) Pretend for one whole day that your father is a king and will give you anything that you desire.
3) Pretend for one whole day that you are a zen master (if you are good at meditation or visualization your sub-conscious will supply you with "information" which is stored in your infinite memory).
| 4) Pretend for one whole day that you are an absolute failure in
| life. (experience any fear
| which may be lurking in the depths of your mind or emotions)
| 5) Pretend for one whole day that you are eternal. (find some
places
| in your self where
| fear has blocked your full expression of the gift of life)
|
| Remember that the processes are designed to gain access to your
"inner
| child" (the soul)
| and perhaps to show you that you can actually transform your experience
of
| reality and even
| transform reality itself once you move past any mental or emotional
| "monsters" (the dross) that
| inhibit you from engaging your imagination (magic, image) and then
| "acting" upon your impulses
| which are consistent with the new pattern which you are creating.
|
| A more "classical" approach is to practice Temperance. To gradually
| discipline the body
| and create balance in all things.
|
| Alchemy requires discipline. Discipline of the mind and emotions
which
| may
| have become the servants of the body rather than the creative tools of
| expression of the indwelling
| consciousness (you). It is the purpose of all esoteric practices to
| reverse this inversion and to
| re-attain mastery. First, mastery over the self and then (as above so
| below) mastery over the
| material plane. At every turn you shall be confronted by two voices.
One
| shall always lie and one shall
| always speak the truth. Always follow the advice of the inner voice
which
| counsels you to
| follow the "Golden Rule". In doing so, every bit of dross is burned
away
| from the golden soul
| and every victory over the "lower" self produces an almost immediate
| reward!
|
| Attempting to create something new ignites the fire within
| The resistance of the old self is the dross which must be burned away
| so, as it rises from your depths into conscious awareness
| skim it off
| purify, purify
| and in doing so you will gradually remember
| exactly who it is that you are!
|
| Peace,
|
| John Chas Webb
|
|
|

Thu Jun 20 11:32:24 1996
Subject: 1136 Where to begin?

From: Clark Stillman
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 23:11:06 -0700

>> I think some of the writings are far too complex. True
>> wisdom is what we should seek! Just give me a formula and some exercises
>> and set me to work!
>
>You might try to find a copy of Frater Albertus' "Alchemical Handbook".
>it is also a good place to startyour journey.
>RG
>-----------------------------------------

Some currently available titles.

Alchemist's Handbook - Frater Albertus
Formerly handed down under oath of secrecy, this clear, concise handbook
discusses the following:the fundamental principles of alchemy; directions
for the formation of an inexpensive home laboratory, with illustrations of
the necessary equipment; step-by-step instructions for the work of the
Lesser Circulation, the alchemical transformation within the plant
kingdom--the necessary prerequisite for any work in the mineral kingdom.

Alchemy - Franz Hartmann Includes Hartmann's 43 'Axiomata Hermetica'.

Marrow Of Alchemy - George Ripley
Written in Latin in Italy, 1476, by Ripley, Canon of Bridlington, to the
Archbishop of York. Translated and revised by William Salmon and Jefferson
Davis Holmes. A classic treatise on the alchemical process.

Alchemical Treatise On The Great Art - Antoine-Joseph Pernety
In this classic limited edition reprint, Antoine-Joseph Pernety (1716-1796)
writes about a system of physics according to the Hermetic Philosophy, and
the Theory and Practice of the 'Magisterium.' The Addenda includes the
unparalleled 'Dictionary of Hermetic Symbols' from Albert Poisson's
'Theories et Symboles de Alchimistes.' Includes a new foreword by Todd
Pratum. Smythe-sewn, printed on acid-free paper. Bibliography, index.

Alchemical Works Of Geber - Richard Russell
The Latin works which are attributed to Geber have long been considered
among the most important of medieval chemical treatises. Geber is of
particular significance in that in spite of the mysticism and obscure
symbolism the pervaded the field, he clearly recognized the importance of a
scientific approach. Translated by Richard Russell in 1678. Introduction by
Dr. E. J. Holmyard, preface by Todd Pratum. Numbered edition of 999 copies,
printed on acid-free paper and smythe-sewn.

Fulcanelli-Master Alchemist - Mary Sworder
In 1920 a student of alchemy studied under Fulcanelli (an alchemical master
whose real name is unknown). He handed his pupil a manuscript, charged him
with the task of publishing it, and disappeared. Cabala, process and
transformation within the alchemical traditions, and much more.

Hermetic And Alchemical Writings Of Paracelsus The Great - Paracelsus
This special limited edition of A. E. Waite's translation is two volumes in
one ('Hermetic Chemistry' and 'Hermetic Medicine'), complete and unabridged.
The 1000 copies are hand-numbered, printed on quality acid-free paper, and
smyth-sewn.

Paracelsus' Alchemical Catechism - Paracelsus
Based on a manuscript found in the Vatican Library by the Baron Tschoudy.

Clark Stillman

Thu Jun 20 11:32:24 1996
Subject: 1137 Music

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 00:24:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: Coulombe Patrice

Dear Douwe,
I could refer you some pieces of Karlhein Stockhausen as
"Stimmung" and "Aus den seiben tagen".

"Aus den sieben tagen" means "came from the seven days". This work is a
group of texts with musical and mystical "cues" for a group of improvisers.
You should take a look at these texts before listening to a recording.

"Stimmung" is the more accessible and the most played piece from the composer
It is for six voices and evoques lost gods of the humanity.

When we talk about mystically inspired music, we must say some words
about David Hykes and his Harmonic Choir: quite beautiful and deep but a
little bit New Age...

My last reference could be, with humility, my own music. You could hear
it by my web page:http://mistral.ere.umontreal.ca/~coulomp/eupraxia.mpg
http://mistral.ere.umontreal.ca/~coulomp/apropos.mpg

If you have a PowerMac you need this shareware:

http://hyperarchive.lcs.mit.edu/HyperArchive/Archive/gst/snd/net-deck.hqx

If you have not, you must try to find a mpeg soundfile reader compatible
with your computer. Sorry...
If you want to hear all of the two pieces, I can mail you a copy for free.
I refer you my music because I make lots of alchemical references in my
works.

Fraternally,
Patrice Coulombe
coulomp@ere.umontreal.ca
http://mistral.ere.umontreal.ca/~coulomp

Thu Jun 20 11:32:24 1996
Subject: 1138 Pegala Hermala

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 10:24:26 +0100 (GMT+0100)
From: Pavel Korensky

> I look for some information about the plant Pegala Hermala and its use in
> alchemy
>
> Martin from Czech

Cool, another alchemy oriented man from Czech.
Excuse-me my off-topic (and maybe a bit cryptic message), but I would like to be
able to find contacts in my country.
So, I will continue in Czech.

Vazeny pane,

omlouvam se, ze Vas kontaktuji touto cestou a ze Vas obtezuji svym dotazem. Mam
zajem o kontakt s lidmi, kteri se u nas venuji hermetickym vedam. Pokud mate
zajem napr. o vymenu knih, materialu a podobne, kontaktujte me prosim na me
e-mailove adrese pavelk@dator3.anet.cz

S pozdravem

Pavel Korensky

--
****************************************************************************
* Pavel Korensky (pavelk@dator3.anet.cz) *
* DATOR3 Ltd., Modranska 1895/17, 143 00 Prague 4, Czech Republic *
* PGP key fingerprint: 00 65 5A B3 70 20 F1 54 D3 B3 E4 3E F8 A3 5E 7C *
****************************************************************************

Thu Jun 20 11:32:25 1996
Subject: 1139 Trojanis

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 13:03:11 +0000
From: Joel Tetard

Claude Gagnon wrote :
> I will look if I still have the adress of the Society devoted to
> Peladan's thought. Maybe our french subscribers, like Mr. Tetard, could help us.

In reply to Claude's "appel du pied" (je salue ici un des trop rares
francophones !) I just found a review which could be of some interest
for people looking for information on Trojani and/or Peladan : the
Summer 95 issue of "l'Originel - Revue des sciences �sot�riques et
Initiatiques" published interesting papers on secret societies of the
Western World. l'Originel seems to be linked to neo-paganist revival
groups.
Their address : 25 rue Saulnier, 75009 Paris Tel/fax + 33 (01) 42 46
28 21.

1 - TROJANI's paper

Fran�ois Trojani wrote a paper on the life of "Le maitre Philippe de
Lyon" (Nizier Philippe, 04/25/1849-08/02/1905). The French
"magn�tiseur" take a great place in the French esoteric world at the
end of the XIX century and was invited to cure the Tsar in 1900. He
had close relationships with martinist leaders. According to Trojani,
Mr. Philippe did some works with plants. He worked mainly in Lyon but
very little information remain from his researches on spagyry.
According to Trojani, Andr� Savoret followed Philippe's works and
developed some medicines ("heliosine" coming from the reaction of
Sodium Chloride on keratin).
(see above for further information on A. Savoret)

According to Trojani, Doc. E Lalande (no information on this man) sent
a letter to Papus suggesting to build a spagyric lab with
Jolivet-Castelot in order to follow Phillipe's works. (no more details
on this project).

2 - PELADAN

Serge Caillet signed a paper "Les Sars de la Rose-Croix" which
summarise the history of the neo-rosicrucian organisations in France
from the Ordre Kabbalistique de la Rose-Croix (created by the "Sar"
Jos�phin P�ladan and D. G�rard Encausse (alias Papus) to the great
number of contemporary orders : n�o-Memphis-Misraim orders, Rose-Croix
Universelle, Ordre Herm�tiste T�tram�giste et Mystique (alias Ordre
Pythagoricien), Eglise Gnostique (which is said to be linked to Roger
Caro), Ordre du Lys et de l'Aigle, Ordre Martiniste Traditionnel...

(Note to French firends : Je prie les lecteurs fran�ais de r�ctifier
et compl�ter ces informations qui peuvent peut-�tre pr�senter un
int�r�t pour certains. Pour ma part, j'avoue �tre un peu perdu dans la
multitude de ces groupes et plut�t pr�f�rer des sujets moins
"sp�culatifs" ...).

Sorry for this French comment and back to English

According to Caillet, some leaders of traditional orders decided to
meet together in 1988 and 1989 ("arc-en-ciel" colloquies) and
founded in 1990 a very confidential organisation named "Groupe de
Th�bes". The main goal of this new group was to be an informal link
between traditional organisations studying Sar Peladan and Sar
Hi�ronymus (Leader of OHTM) and other "Sars" (s�r Sucus, s�r Or-Zam,
etc.) teachings.

Groupe de Th�be would have suspending its activity today.

Note from JT : I don't know if Trojani is linked to this Group. Maybe
other group(s) could exist too.

3 - SAVORET
I did a quick researches on Andr� Savoret (1898-1977)

Savoret was a close friend of M. Eug�ne Canseliet. According to the
well-known Fulcanelli's disciple (in "Le Feu du Soleil" by Robert
Amadou, Pauvert Paris 1978. ISBN 2.7202.0088.3) Andr� Savoret studied
alchemy with Georges Riche (alias Auriger) who was himself a disciple
of Pierre Dujols "Magophon" (who was said to be Fulcanelli...)

What a labyrinth !...

Genevi�ve Dubois gives us more information on Savoret : according to a
footnote in "Fulcanelli d�voil�" Savoret was very interested in
druidism and was linked to Phil�as Lebesgue. He founded the "Coll�ge
Bardique des Gaulles" and wrote a great number of books and papers.
Some of them :
- "Du Menhir � la Croix, essai sur la triple tradition de l'Occident"
(1932)
- "les Forces Secr�tes de la Vie" (1937)
- "l'Inversion Physchanalitique" (1939)
- "Visages du druidisme" (no date)
- "Qu'est-ce que l'Alchimie ?" (J. Heugel editions, 1947)
He translated Eckartshaussen's "Essais Chimiques" in 1938 and "La Nu�e
sur le Sanctuaire".
Savoret published some papers in "Psych�" in 1931 and, more recently,
in La Tourbe des Philosophes (n) 6, 7, 8 and 19 issues. See also an
anonymous paper in n.30 which seems to be written by the same author).

Best wishes.

Jo�l Tetard

Note : I have no relationship with l'Original or any of the listed
groups.

Thu Jun 20 11:32:25 1996
Subject: 1140 Science/magic

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 06:47 PDT
From: Diane Munoz

Rex Phillips said
>
>Peggy, power is everywhere. Sex and many other such forces we do not
>have control over yet these forces shape our lives in very fundamental
>primal ways. You seem to be deluding yourself into thinking that you had
>more actual choice and free agency in this matter.

** This is not so true, Rex. We always have choice, always. So that is the
power that one must understand about themselves. Sex and all those other
powers are subject to our choices.

Perhaps the greatest focus of ours is to regain all the power of our
choices that we have given to the others around us (lovers, children,
bosses, government, etc). First that is done through the ignorance that in
order to have power over our lives we must have the power over others... in
other words, we attempt to change the roles. But ultimately, we face that
truth that everything we do, we chose to allow it to be that way, no matter
how paradoxical the choice was.

>"This world is a monster of energy without beginning and without end."
>- Nietzsche in Will to Power

Nietzsche was a wise man. And the mastery of this life is understanding
that the power ultimately is centered and issues forth from ourselves.

Diane

Diane Munoz ~ goldenthr@yelmtel.com or Armenua@aol.com

Thu Jun 20 11:32:25 1996
Subject: 1141 Music

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 11:02:23 -0500
From: George Randall Leake III

>From: Kate Ryan"
>To add to the message on the music of Georges I. Gurdjieff, I obtained
>my CD's from the Bodhi Book Store , L.A, California.
>The Complete Piano Music of Geoges I. Gurdjieff and Thomas De
>Hartmann;Cecil Lytle, Pianist.Volume 1, Seekers of the Truth, Volume 2,
>Reading of a Sacred Book, and Volume 3, Words for a Hymn to the Sun .
>Gurdjieffs friends I believe, worked on the association of music and
>plants - vibrations.

*such an association would then imply a connection to the ideas of Frater
Albertus. Any comments from people who've digested both men's works better
than I?

-G.Leake, 512-471-9117 taliesin@mail.utexas.edu

Thu Jun 20 11:32:25 1996
Subject: 1142 Plant mutations/communication

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 12:41:10 -0700
From: AW

> > Anything which produces euphoria in Western "culture" is immediately made
> > illegal. The "reason" for this is because happiness does not sell products.
> > People buy products because our culture links them to yielding happiness.
> > This is the dilemma of the material mind. Western culture produces "hungry
> > ghosts" who seek one material "thrill" after another. A consuming madness.
> > Every ancient culture has used psychotropic substances. In the hands of
> > the disciplined these substances are sacrament. In the hands of the profane
> > they become addictive tools of destruction.
> > Peace,
> > John Chas Webb

I agree with what you say about society John but what the drug is doing
is removing one of the base elements temporarily, causing an expanding
consciousness. Yes it works but it can be obtained in a safer way. Are
you not doing the same thing as the western world by taking the easy way
that costs more money and less work? I have seen both sides of this
fence myself.

Andy

Thu Jun 20 11:32:25 1996
Subject: 1143 Drugs needed?

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 17:36:17 +0100
From: al4302

Drugs are and have always been apart of the art

Thu Jun 20 11:32:25 1996
Subject: 1144 Search

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 11:01:49 -0600
From: fisher1

>From: Andy
>
>I like this John. Any suggestions for learning to transfer the
>consciousness? Is there an Alchemical aid?

Andy,
So many ways to transfer consciousness. First step in most
techniques is to leave your ego at its door like a pair of shoes. Buddhist
methods are well documented, particularly in Dzog Chen and Vajrayana.
Become the sky or emptiness first, then transfer to the chosen path. In
Western alchemical traditions proceeding through the 12 alchemical stages in
the lab/mind (calcination, purification, fermentation, etc.) becoming each
one of them, becoming all of them, becoming none of them is a good
beginning. Tarot loving alchemists may want to back themselves right into
the chosen cards image and Hebraic letter & associated correspondences and
become it. Buddhist alchemists become the deity that represents the
consciousness desired. All successful alchemists are Ultimate Chameleons
capable of shifting their assemblage points.

Thu Jun 20 11:32:25 1996
Subject: 1145 Music

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 13:14:10 -0500 (EST)
From: OISPEGGY

>Adrian Monk:
>The list could go on, but does it really mean anything? True, the
>symbolism in the Magic Flute will be recognisable and familiar to third
>degree freemasons, but then it can hardly be doubted that other
>examples of the very greatest music, such as Bach's Mass in B Minor,
>or Beethoven's Missa Solemnis, or the Liszt Sonata, may be called
>transcendental in the sense of inspired by something-greater-than-I,
>and may with more justification merit the description "hermetic" than
>the musical fumblings of a third-rate composer such as Satie.

Agreed.

And I'll add one of my modern favorites -- Jean Luc Ponte --
and his electric violin. (Don't know what he's "rated" by
music experts but I like it.)

- Peggy -

Thu Jun 20 11:32:25 1996
Subject: 1146 Music

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 12:15:24 -0500
From: George Randall Leake III

>From: Lionel D. Perrin
>Coil: Their use of alchemy is part of their gay imagery. They used to be
>Derek Jarman's best friends. They did together a movie entitled "Angelic
>Conversations" featuring Shakespeare's Sonnets.

*just to add one more thing...I think this film is a comment on Crowley's
divine union ritual, the uniting of the soul with the Holy Guardian Angel,
and the connection of that to Shakespeare's Muse present in the so-called
Dark Lady sonnets. A rather fresh approach to Shakespeare which works quite
well I think. By extension you can also make the connection to the Triumph
paradigm of the original tarot in that Shakespeare's works are full of this
conceit. Everyone here I'm sure can recall mentions of Time, Fortune, Fame,
Death, and so on, not to mention the 7 Stages of Man in As You Like It
(recall recent thread on Tarots de Mantegna).

-G.Leake, 512-471-9117 taliesin@mail.utexas.edu

Thu Jun 20 11:32:25 1996
Subject: 1147 plant comm./molecular structure

Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1980 23:38:33 -0700
From: Morgan Saletta

Molecular structure.... I posted about this awhile back. I have this
idea that the enochian entities, some of them, or some entitites of
some sort, are expressed via the elements -- this after scrying the
periodic table. In fact, I have this working theory that any type
of matter has another level of force in a less material plane (for
lack of a better word) and that some of these ethereal forces have
what we would call consciousness and/or can do stuff. Its sort of
like the classic _Flatland_ (found in the philosophy or engineering
section of mosts libraries). We are in a "flat" dimension and
can only see/feel/hear stuff that passes into our plane, but that
doesn't mean that our is the only plane or that the entire "thing" is
expressing itself in our plane only. (Also, the sensory experiences
we can have are terrific and should be enjoyed and cultivated because
we may not always have the chance.) I've found the ideas in
_Flatland_ to be very useful when applied to esoteric studies.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Yes. I'm familiar with Flatland, though must confess I haven't read the
entire thing, perhaps I'll pick it back up. Are you familiar with Tim
Leary's book, Exopsychology (recently re-released as Info-psychology). He
promotes a quantum eschatology, with levels of consciousness from
multi-cellular, genetic (species consciousness), to the ultimate
minitiarization of consciousness at the quantum level. His book the Game of
Life attempts to create a new Tarot with links to the periodic table and the
genetic code. Very interesting.

Also, the term enochion entities: is this a reference to the entities
encountered when using the Sephiroth as a meditational device? Please excuse
my ingnorance.

Thu Jun 20 11:32:25 1996
Subject: 1148 Alchemy Lab-Work question

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 14:51:42 -0500
From: George Randall Leake III

Here's a first I think from me....

In looking at Frater Albertus last night it occurred to me that the most
dangerous aspect to setting up a lab is that it might be interpreted as a
drug producing lab. I live in Texas where people love to see innocent
marijuana users sent to jail only to be sodomized by hardened criminals.
The police here have free reign and hightech detection devices. Such a
thing as a lab with constant heat source and beakers and so forth will look
like a speed lab to the average cop who's never heard of alchemy (you gotta
remember, reading books or engaging in anything "intellectual" or
"artistic" is for "queerboys" and their "fag-hag" girlfriends) who will
feel no hesitation at busting up the place and taking what they want as
evidence. Do any of you have any practical suggestions here? Any lawyers
out there with free advice? Has anyone ever dealt with this?

This is a fairly serious question despite the obvious humor. Just trying to
give some of you an idea of the cultural context of the state represented
by such wits as Phil Gramm and Kay Bailey Hutchinson.

-G.Leake, 512-471-9117 taliesin@mail.utexas.edu

Thu Jun 20 11:32:25 1996
Subject: 1149 Stibnite/oil of metals

Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1980 23:58:25 -0700
From: Morgan Saletta

I am curious about the medicinal value of stibnite (antimony sulphide). I
understand that it is used in the purification of gold because of its
ability too join with the other metals, but not gold. However, it is also
perported to be of the highest possible medicine to those who are adepts.
Aparrently the monks of the "antimoines" story were not adepts.

Basil Valentine writes: from J. Read THROUGH ALCHEMY TO CHEMISTRY, "Although
antimony in its raw state is a poison, yet poison can attract itself to
poison more effectively than any other heterogenous substance... there is
hidden in it (the Star) a wonderful medicine, which may be prepared from it"

Does this refer to the idea that small doses of poison are medicinal
(homeopathy?). Or is this related to the idea of making oils of metal such as
gold. This is a process I don't really understand. Would some practitioners
care to help me here?

Sincerely,

Morgan Saletta

Thu Jun 20 14:51:20 1996
Subject: 1150 Alchemy Lab-Work question

Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 19:10:42 CDT
From: Dan Hill

A friend in Richardson Texas has his lab in his garage. One day while working, a cop walked up to the garage but was not disturbed by the equipment when we told him it was only alchemical experiments.

I personaly have my lab in a shed with a pad lock. Maybe if you inform the city about what you want to do they will leave you alone otherwise I guess be very secretive about it....

lvx,