Alchemy Forum 1301-1350

From January 25th 1996, the Alchemy forum was restructured and the messages were sequentially numbered. This is an unedited extract of messages 1301-1350.
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Fri Jul 05 00:07:56 1996
Subject: 1301 Plant mutations - drugs

Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 15:55:40 -0400
From: Rick Grimes

Adam McLean wrote:
> "If we wish to pursue the topic of drugs in alchemy then we must
>show the link to known alchemists or alchemical texts. Aleister
>Crowley, Robert Anton Wilson, Timothy Leary, etc., were not
>alchemists, or recognised scholars of alchemy."

>From: A'yin Da'ath
> We can't show any links if we are not allowed to ponder aloud to others.
> Very well- The symbols of the red lion and white eagle, or the black dragon-
> could these not be related to drugs, and the alchemical process is a system
> of producing the mystical/psychological clean slate using psychotropic
> substances? As for what you define as alchemy, I must know, or how else
> are we to continue discussion.

In reference to my last post of Wed. July 3rd, and as a qualifier in regard to
Adam's request, my comments about the relation between glandular essential
oils [habitat of one's soul], living metallic Sulfur [alchemically produced
by the body], and meditative success [consciously understanding ones spiritual
insights], were gleaned from several private discussions about such with
Frater Albertus. Some of you may not know of Frater Albertus, and those who
do may have an assortment of opinions about his veracity. In any case he
deserves
to be numbered among the alchemists of this century.

Definitions to ponder:
Alchemy: The raising of vibrations; be it natural or artificial [ i.e., by art.]
Alchemist: One who has, by individual effort and inner reflection, arrived at a
TRUE state of conscious SELF integration; one who is adept at real self
control.
A Student of Alchemy: The seeker; the disciple; one who pursues with great
passion an inner prompting to pierce the veil of ignorance, overcome the
coma of the status-quo. One who seeks the liberation of mind and spirit, and
yet assumes full responsibility for the burden of their benefit, which is
humble service. Note:
The greatest form of humility is TRUTH in all its forms, especially to and
within ones self.

An Alchemist:
To become an Alchemist one does not need to make a Philosopher's Stone, or
become adept with the application of magical power. One needs to become ONE
with the divine impulse within. Yes, it is a large order, however the truth
is that we are all already divine beings. We don't have to acquire it; we
only have to liberate it.
But we make use of physical achievement to verify our progress and in that
way the Stone, Magic, Qabalah, etc. serve us while in the flesh - so to speak.

When one does achieve adeptship, through whatever means, a couple of things
occur. Contact is made, first on the inner planes, then at some point
physically,
by adepts of greater responsibility. One then becomes a conscious worker;
at first no more than an apprentice, or a Grunt. Ones joy and great
fulfillment in this work is in KNOWING what one is doing, rather than in
speculating within
ones egocentricity and belief milieus.

Drugs - to use or not to use? That is the question.
Suppose what I have presented is in fact true. Would it not be advantageous
to be absolutely clear of mind and body when contact is made? Especially
inner contact! If one has become dependent upon the use of chemicals,
external to the body's natural chemistry, to explore the inner worlds,
how could you be sure of the veracity of your contact? Oh, yes, I know the
American Indian Holy men, and True Shaman all over the globe use
stimulants. Please, don't make the mistake of comparing your
experimentation's with their practices. That would be like comparing a
back yard tussle with a professional prize fight. They, for the most part,
achieved adeptship under the strictest supervision before they were allowed
to practice alone.

Twenty five years ago I had the great pleasure of meeting an Ogalala Holy
man who apprenticed under his teacher for thirty years before he was even
allowed to perform a ceremony solo - and we think our doctors are
well trained!

At any rate, back to my thought. There are three important things one should
consider before using drugs to find Valhalla.
1. They are not needed.
2. They tend to remain in the body as residual toxin which is contrary
to the purpose of preparing a clean vessel for the New Wine [real higher
consciousness].
3. Inner contacts that do occur are suspect and dangerous because one will
be impaired in verifying them as positive. I should also mention that the
contact you seek will not occur, anyway, until the residual toxins are first
eliminated.

Scores upon scores of books exist that were written by would be adepts,
magicians, prophets, gurus, and so on. Many of whom used drugs before
during or after their revelations. As to their worth, you must be the judge for
yourselves. But I can offer this; after almost forty years in this work I have
been down more blind alleys than I can remember. I've learned much from
my wondering, experimentation, and self serving folly, but the
most valuable thing I learned was that I recognize blind alleys. Drug use
for spiritual awakening is a blind alley.

Everything I have written is my opinion based upon my own experience.
I mean to judge no one.

Peace to all,
RG

Fri Jul 05 08:56:58 1996
Subject: 1302 Theatre

Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 12:42:01 -0500 (CDT)
From: John D. O'Brien

> I'm very curious as to the connection between humor, alchemy and
> drama. Pardon me if this is an ignorant question, but I would love to hear
> about some of the intriguing functions of humor in this regard. > Chris

Investigation reveals that Geoffrey Chaucer was intimately familiar with
Alchemy.

John D. O'Brien obriens@sound.net

Fri Jul 05 11:48:28 1996
Subject: 1303 Is alchemy unique?

Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 21:58:00 -0400
From: Jeffrey

> From Martin:
>Could someone define or explain *self* and *ego*,
>and who is meant by *partner* ? The self again ?

Jung uses the term ego to mean the center of consciousness, the I that
thinks and acts and does. Though the ego has a bad reputation, Jung-and the
alchemists-believed it was essential for the alchemical work for without it
there would no conscious operator to fuel the work. By self he means the
center of the whole personality, including not only conscousness but the
unconscious as well. He also means by it the inner divine spark or the god
within. I use the self in that sense-to mean the god that wishes to be in
matter and to be in the human psyche and world. This god, who must be
transformed in the alchemical work, is the partner for itbecomes married to
the ego the coniunctio or union. My whole idea is that alchemy is about
bringing the divine into matter, as self, so that it can marry the ego and
lift the ego into spirit, so that spirit and matter become one. One
alchemist goes so far as to say every part of the physical body becomes
divine, including sexual organs and instinctual energy.So, the ego instead of
being killed off becomes god, as the self-god becomes personal. Hope that
helps explain it a little. There is a nice book on alchemy and Jung called
Anatomy of the Pscyhe by Eddinger which explains more of these terms.

Fri Jul 05 11:48:32 1996
Subject: 1304 Johannes Fabricius

Date: Fri, 5 Jul 96 18:50 NZST
From: Pat Zalewski

>Can anyone tell me anything about a book on Alchemy by Johannes
>Fabricius When was it written? What is his "angle"?
>
>Any information appreciated.

It's basically psychological, but he has married it together with some
basic theories on the practical as well. Actually I quite like it. I could
not find Cowley or Leary mentioned but am looking hard in the bibliography
section.

Pat zalewski


Sat Jul 06 18:17:08 1996
Subject: 1305 Openness

From: John Chas Webb
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 14:39:26 -1000

DARREN M SWANICK wrote:
Be wary of being lured into the false security of the 'openess' of
>this age, for there have been other times in the past where society was
>open to new ideas, but then
>the fear of humanity took hold and many seekers were hunted and put to
>death for their beliefs, although many of us hope that this is the
>age of the great revelation, we must be wary that humanity can revert
>back to their darker past. > DMS

John D. O'Brien responded:
>Excellent point; there are a lot of narrow-minded people out amongst
>the masses. Even a few in our midst, I dare think.

>But then, most Alchemists have been smart enough to recognize when
>the going is getting tough, that it's time to get going.

****************************************************************

The Alchemist extracts him or herself from the "masses" and associates
with others who have dedicated themselves to "The Great Work". The
transition from ape to Man is not as contrasting as the transition of Man
to "The Golden One" or divinized man or woman!

The Alchemist's key in dealing with the masses is one of compassion and,
whenever possible, love. The accomplished Alchemist finds that "The Golden
Rule" works true magic. Wherever and whenever the Alchemist is unable to
love or act compassionately it is there that the Alchemist finds "some
dross" that has corrupted his or her "gold".

An accomplished adept who has diligently worked to change lead
(encumbering weight) to gold (the inner light) is free of all harsh
criticisms and free of fear (more dross). The power and light which they
have restored transforms all circumstances and merges them with the natural
flow of life (which is to produce "gold"). Harsh criticism is a perfect
example of "mercury" as a highly toxic substance. In esoteric alchemy
Mercury represents the mind, or more particularly one's thought processes.
Because thought has a creative function negative thoughts then are "toxic"
as they poison the consciousness which in turn poisons one's experience of
"reality". One great accomplishment of the Alchemist is to eliminate the
toxic consequences of Mercury by exercising extreme care (monitoring and
realigning the thought processes). An Alchemist apprentice working under
the guidance of a master can be continually reminded of the importance of
the care in dealing with Mercury! Lab experiments then become the arena in
which the master instructs the apprentice, otherwise the wayward apprentice
eventually poisons him or herself because of unawareness of how highly
toxic Mercury can be.

Regarding the approach to the "new age" it is important to remember that
much of our written history regards the Piscean Age. As Alchemists are
traditionally aware of astronomy and its humanistic spinoff, astrology,
they then are keenly apprised of the significance of the sign of Pisces.
The emerging age is Aquarius and portends a radical and gradual shift in
human consciousness. To accelerate the appearance of the "new age" the
Alchemist works to purify his or her consciousness (as partially mentioned
above) and then begins to actively participate in the creation of a new
Golden Age!

Try the following experiment! Spend one whole day seeing everyone whom
you contact as a dear friend! (Notice your initial reaction to this
experiment as it may reveal toxins) If the experiment works then "fix"
your result as your new "origination point"!

I have past through this phase of dealing with Mercury and share my
experience with you in the spirit of goodwill and brotherly guidance.

Very Best Regards!

John Chas Webb
johnboy@aloha.net


Sat Jul 06 18:17:21 1996
Subject: 1306 Is alchemy unique?

From: John Chas Webb
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 14:59:06 -1000

| >From: Jeffrey
| >.....The self shares the same personality with the ego, which is how god
| >becomes human, while the ego shares the divinity of its partner which is
| >how man becomes divine...
|
| Could someone define or explain *self* and *ego*,
| and who is meant by *partner* ? The self again ?
|
| Thanks!
| Martin

The intermix of the attributes which you have mentioned above is a perfect
example of an "ore". Substances which contain varying amounts of different
ingredients are symbols of the possibilities of the range and colour of
human consciousness. It is the work of the Alchemist to arrange and
rearrange these "ingredients" to arrive at a more pleasing experience of
the "self".

I'll give you a clue! All of the terms which you have used describe the
same thing! The accomplished Alchemist can rearrange the ratios of the
ingredients if they are standing upon the Philosopher's Stone.

The mind cannot grasp it because it is not a "thing".

Huh ?
John Chas Webb
johnboy@aloha.net


Sat Jul 06 18:17:29 1996
Subject: 1307 Christians and mysticism

Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 20:35:07 -0700
From: joshua geller

Subject: 1215 Christians and mysticism

> From: John D. O'Brien

> > other gods (I believe. Please correct me if I am wrong). This either makes
> > them non-Christian, or enhances their faith to such a degree that
> > they have become, in fact, more Christian than your average
> > Church goer or Priest.

> We Mormons consider ourselves Christian although some other Christian
> denominations don't want to accept that. We also acknowledge "other gods"
> although there is no worship of "other gods", even Jesus.

yes. many christian sects have as radical a theology, though perhaps
in different directions.

christianity started off a lot more theologically diverse than it
later became. what happened was that the catholic ('orthodox') church
formed a partnership with the roman state and of course immediately
started using the coercive power of the state to suppress the
'minority' sects (all of them were minorities: the 'orthodox' were
(usually) the single largest sect. of course once they wiped out the
other minorities they were the majority sect. funny how that works.

the reformation broke the catholic/'orthodox' monopoly on theological
correctness. since then many sects have experimented with all sorts of
diverse theologies.

the mistake is accepting any one of them as the 'one true way' (of
course if you are a *devout* mormon you will disagree with this, as
will most devout sectarians of any kind).

josh


Sat Jul 06 18:26:33 1996
Subject: 1308 Christians and mysticism

I think this particular thread on Christians and mysticism, has really
wandered a bit far from our subject of alchemy. There are a lot of
Christian mystical resonances with alchemy, for example, I am at the moment
transcribing a manuscript of a 17th century mystic called John Pordage, who
does explore alchemical ideas. There are many rich ways of looking at
alchemy with reference to christian mysticism.

The thread of discussion on Christians and mysticism does not, however,
appear to be addressing alchemy in any way. Let us try and focus our
discussions on our chosen subject.

Adam McLean


Sat Jul 06 18:26:35 1996
Subject: 1309 Christians and mysticism

Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 20:55:15 -0700
From: joshua geller

> Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 18:56:19 -0600
> From: fisher

> Check out Allegro's book, The Cipher of Genesis for a scholarly discussion
> of ELOHIM-M/F including its gematria along with an in depth peak at the
> "true" meaning of Genesis.

john allegro? you mean john 'sumerian roots of hebrew' allegro?

josh


Sat Jul 06 18:26:37 1996
Subject: 1310 Theatre

From: John Chas Webb
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 18:58:51 -1000

| From: Christopher L. Chiappari
|
| Dear William Hollister,
| I'm very curious as to the connection between humor, alchemy and
| drama. Pardon me if this is an ignorant question, but I would love to
| hear about some of the intriguing functions of humor in this regard.
|
| Thanks,
| Chris

The world renowned genius in this area is William Shakespeare.

John Chas Webb
johnboy@aloha.net

-----------------------------
Dear John Chas Webb,

I think the original posters of this enquiry wanted to explore in more
detail the links between the Theatre and alchemy. Can you expand a bit more
on Shakespeare and alchemy?

Adam McLean


Sat Jul 06 18:26:39 1996
Subject: 1311 Homunculus

Date: Fri, 5 Jul 1996 22:38:21 -0700
From: joshua geller

> From: Pat Zalewski

> >About the matter of the homunculus I have taken a part of "The Magical
> >Revival" by Kenneth Grant. One may think about Mr. Grant, what
> >ever may want, but as a collector he is great. The formula
> >described in the following is very usefull and if intelligent
> >changed and modified, it works VERY well.

>.... Spare was also a genius of sorts ( I do not use the term
> lightly) and had the ability to condense his etheric body through the
> framework of a sigil with the release point being an orgasm, in many
> respects what he acomplished was very Reichen. The point I am getting at
> here is ,is this alchemy or sexual magic or a combination of both?
> It may be not quite within the brief of this forum's discussion.

it's at least as alchemical as the jungian stuff. there are lots of
relations between archaeoastronomy, various magickal sex practices and
practical laboratory alchemy. I share your strong bent towards
laboratory practices: this does not mean that the sexual stuff is not
valid.

josh


Sun Jul 07 13:21:49 1996
Subject: 1312 Consciousness

Date: Sat, 6 Jul 96 16:41 NZST
From: Pat Zalewski

>From: Barry Carter,
>Is all the talk about alchemy being not just to change lead to gold
>but to find the Philosopher's Stone in order to change conciousness
>just window dressing?

Barry Carter,

If you want just a change in consciousness then I suggest you try Jungian
psychology or alt. zen something or other. The parameters of alchemy are
well known to most in the group, and it is not always the ultimate desire to
change consciousness, but it is the experience of learning upon a certain
pathway that perhaps may lead to it. In my opinion it is the learning
experience that soul or spirit craves, not always the desired result. What
we are trying to do in alchemy is map and control areas of the work (or our
psyche) so that we know how it works along preconceived function. I am a
practical alchemist, like many in this forum. But before one is a practical
alchemist the imagery must be studied and understood first. Some like Waite,
do not take the practical step, but still study its imagery, again the
journey, not always the end result that counts

Pat zalewski


Sun Jul 07 17:29:04 1996

From: Adam McLean
Subject: Drugs thread abandoned on alchemy forum - new mailgroup?

The recent thread on drugs, Crowley, etc., has degenerated into people
taking up rigid positions, posturing and making silly points. I have
suspended this thread and will not post any more messages on these subjects.
I received nearly 20 contributions over the weekend, none of these will be
posted onto the forum.

It is obvious to me that a number of people want to discuss drugs,
hallucinogenics, Crowley, Leary, McKenna, etc. but I have come to the
conclusion that this is not applicable to the alchemy forum. Consequently I
have written to the main people posting on the side of drugs, Crowley etc.,
and suggested that they themselves form a mail group on this subject. Once
they have an address for subscriptions I will post a message to the alchemy
forum informing us all of the creation of this new mailing group, so that
anyone who wants to pursue these topics further can do so.

With my best wishes,

Adam Mclean


Tue Jul 09 10:15:26 1996
Subject: 1313 The targets of alchemy

Date: Mon, 8 Jul 96 02:42 +0100
From: Waldemar Hammel

I am a student of physics and philosophy here at the university of Aachen.

As a newcomer in this forum I would like to know if you really have desires to
change lead into gold by the known alchemistic operations?
What is the difference between a practical and a theoretical alchemist?
Are you really running laboratories in the old-fashioned style?

To my opinion the art of alchemy is belonging to the history of human
perception and the developement of human consciousness.
Knowledge of this is very important (e.g. discovering a semantical
information theory, my hobby!), but it makes no sense to stand in a
laboratory and try to change lead into gold today, as we are informed better
about nature than in former times.

So I would like to ask:
What sense makes active alchemy today? What kinds of desires has it, what
are it´s targets?

Waldemar Hammel


Tue Jul 09 10:15:29 1996
Subject: 1314 Is alchemy unique?

From: John Chas Webb
To: "Alchemy forum"

Re: 1303 Is alchemy unique?

Consider this:

If Jung was totally correct then there would certainly be many
enlighted/Alchemist Phd.'s.

By thinking that YOU bring the divine into matter is precisely the error.
Many of the alchemical texts relate "tales of horror" (dismemberment, being
mashed into oblivion) which relate the death of the ego. This is a
necessary step to allowing the divine (the gold) to enter into the "space"
which was formerly occupied by the renegade ego.

The ego becomes the "bride" of this divine energy suggesting, in an
historical and patriarchial way, that the ego becomes the servant of the
Light. The problem which alchemy attempts to address is where the EGO has
already become "god". The EGO is not lifted into spirit, it is
dis-integrated as it surrenders to spirit (dismembered).

The result which you speak of (the divination of the body) is certainly
possible, however, transcending "animal" passions helps the distillation
process as the gold is extracted from the base metal. The personal will,
which corresponds to the planet Mars, is represented by iron. What the
Alchemist does to iron is what the spirit must do to the ego in the
transmutation process.

To the extent that you use the term "ego" to define an "individual self" you
are correct.

After the successful completion of the process a new self is created,
however, it only becomes "an EGO" if your are unfortunate enough to become
aware of it! Because once you re-notice that you have an "ego" you "fall"
back into separation and the alchemical marriage goes on the skids!

Now you see it, now you don't,
John Chas Webb
johnboy@aloha.net


Tue Jul 09 10:15:33 1996
Subject: 1315 Czech Alchemy - Franz Bardon

From: UDV
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 16:01:43 +-200

>From: Rawn Clark
>Thank you for your outline of Czech alchemists! I am wondering if
>you know any details of the life of another Czech, Franz Bardon?
>Do you by chance know if there are any Czech alchemists who
>incorporate Bardon's teachings in their practice of alchemy?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
He was born in the year 1909 in Opava and worked in Germany
as variety artist called Frabato. The Prague hermetic circle
Universalia interrupted contact with Bardon because of his
behaviour. Bardon was a pupil of Wilhelm Quintscher /Rah- Omir/
and he was very skillful in astral operations. He summoned a
flash in the sunny day during a quarrel in distict Vinohrady in
Prague. This story was written also in newspapers.
He studied spagyric and homeopathic medicine in his laboratory
in Opava. For the sake of this he was arrested in the 1958
and in July 1958 he died in the Brno prison.
He was chief of ocult circles in Prague - Holesovice, street
Komunardu. He wrote this book:

Praction of magic evokacion 1,2
Key to real cabala
Gate to real initiation
Frabato - roman

In these books are many discusionable parts, for example genii (spirits)
of Jupiters zone - names, with Bardon named Jupiter's genii
belong to Saturn zone, some signs of genius and antigenius are
mistakes. Bardon's great contribution is in the large number of names of
geniuses, which were published in his books.

Martin from Czech


Tue Jul 09 10:15:35 1996
Subject: 1316 Alchemy today

Date: Mon, 8 Jul 96 15:38 +0100
From: Waldemar Hammel

First in history existed the natural philosophy (NP), it was founded on a
binary
logic: up and down, yesterday and tomorrow, good and bad, heaven and hell etc.
Even the language follows that binary principle, all human perception does
and the human consciousness too.

Nature seems to follow the same principle:
It has a hardware (the chemicals and the elements, quantity) and a software
(the meanings of these hardware elements, the symbolisms, quality). One we
can call syntax (hardware), and the other semantic (software).
Nature may not really be like that, but human perception shows it to us in that
way!

Perception works like this:
to recognize for example a chemical element we must seperate it from its
original background, because we are unable to recognize the whole world and
all the connections in it in one time (that would be called holistic
recognition).
When the element is seperated initializing the act of recognition it looses all
its original semantics (original interactions) and by this would be out of
existence (hardware without semantic simply does not exist, because it
carries no interactions). To give it existence to be able to recognize it,
perception charges that piece of hardware newly with semantics, but these
are quasi private-semantics generated by the observer. With these semantics
the element is dressed (these semantics are called attributes).
After that the observer has got a piece of hardware with attributes on it, and
it seems, that the attributes are element-inherent, but they are not!

They are made by the recognition of the observer.
Seeing a foreshadow of that principle alchemy started.
Since thousands of years they try to take away the attributes (semantics)
from one element (e.g. sulphur) and to give them to another (e.g. lead). (Gold
described as yellow and heavy metal).

When you accept the above described, alchemy is the logical consequence.
When the attributes of things are generated not by things themselves but by
our perception, we should be able to manipulate these attributes, change
them etc.

As concerning to perception and consciousness you must go the inner way to
theoretical alchemy, changing perception and consciousness, its the inner,
the mental laboratory of alchemia (that way always comes together with
religious and psychological ideas and phantasies). There is also the place
of the important language laboratory of alchemia.

As concerning to hardware and its attributes you must go into a real
laboratory, it is the outer way of alchemia. That outer way is more or less
the inversion of the inner way, and both ways are able to learn from each
other, consecutively trying to find the real >language of nature<.

In the real laboratory the alchemist tries to manipulate the hardware and by
this to learn about his perception principles.
The alchemy game goes between perception and consciousness on one side and
natures hardware (objects of perception) on the other.

It originally concerns all objects of perception in this world, that the normal
alchemist only works with chemical elements is only analogical, its an easy
way to try out the above principles and problems. Originally alchemia
treats with all things of perception observable in this world.
The inner and the outer way of alchemia are complementary ways, the
principle is a binary one as (+) and (-).

Alchemia tries to have a holistic view of world, when they say e.g. minerals
grow like animals they may have an idea of what we call ecosphere, or when
they search the general principle behind the creation of elements (in our
perception), and element here means any element (object) in the world you
want, not only chemical elements. They try to get sure about the unity of
world, but as long as they suffer from binary religious pictures (God and
Devil, good and bad) this philosophy is corrupted. I think it was Hermes who
said: as it is above it is at the bottom.... That speaks about unity of this
world behind all the foreground differences and contradictions.

So the usual God cannot belong to the unified principle of alchemia,
although he may be included in it, because he is in struggles with his
antipart, the Devil.

The unified principle must be searched behind that language sponsored
bivalent imaginations.(Wittgenstein) (Therefore alchemia runs a language
laboratory with semantic and iconic experiments as well, look Abulafia et
al. Cabbalists).

When alchemia would put that work in the foreground of its activities again, it
would experience the same kind of war against the churches as in the middle
ages. That would make alchemia dangerous again to all who have their world
in order and are saturated with the normal, unpretentious perception.
By doing that, alchemia would have massive interactions to modern
linguistics and physics, which are to my opinion the true native place of
alchemia (and not chemistry, as most of the people think by suggestion of
the word >alchemy<).

Alchemy could become the highest level of natural philosophy again as a
bracket connecting the science of consciousness and recognition to
linguistics (including mathematics) and nature sciences as physics,
chemistry, etc., and pseudo-nature-sciences as medicine and psychology etc.
By doing that it would work out the philosophy of a unified world of which
human is an integrated part, bringing together the symbolic quality-entity
world of the middle ages with the modern syntax-based quantity world.
That would need a new language and a new consciousness, non-binary logics.

New age movements, the believe in indian philosophy, ecology movement, the
physicists search for a unified theory of universe, all that are stand-alone
experiments in that right direction, but without the integrative power which
would be needed. Alchemia could deliver that power because it is
basical unconventional, not limited by cultural, religious, and temporal
censorships.

That is what I think about alchemia, it could become a great modern science,
when it would be able to translate the seeming old fashioned questions into
modern language (because in reality the modern questions are the same!) and
modern conditions (human perception always works the same way, with all its
mistakes).

By doing this, alchemia would take that responsibility for human development
again, with which the forefathers charged it.
Alchemia was not created to be a profane building for the crowd and their
wishes to make gold or money, nor had it the intention to be a habour for
paranoid or psychotic ill people, nor was the intention to be a
leisure-time-joke for saturated and degenerated societies.

When the transformation into modern alchemia is not made, it comes down to
an old fashioned nonsense-ideology (in that corner most people see it today
already, e.g. at the university of Aachen where the philosophers! make
laughable courses about alchemy, showing an astronomical ignorance about the
real implications of that art).
That fullfills the old law, that every wisdom sounds like nonsense when
communicated in the false way.

I would like to experience the opinions of the others on this web-site
concerning that theme.

greetings
Waldemar Hammel


Tue Jul 09 10:15:46 1996
Subject: 1317 Need Living Spirit of Nitre ?

Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 23:56:19 -0400
From: Russ House

An associate who is a practicing alchemist asked that I see if there is any
demand for living Spirit of Nitre. It is produced by him in a stainless
steel retort using native vitriol (copper sulphate) and native sodium
nitrate (Chilean saltpeter), using a classical method of production. The
Chilean saltpeter has been only minimally processed, having been crystalized
only once from the nitre in the soil, so it is quite 'alive'.

He will also be examining the different qualities of potassium nitrate vs
sodium nitrate. As such, it is a 'living' nitric acid. Not the acid of
Leary, Alpert, et al. ;-)

At this point he has no idea of pricing, but would establish that after he
begins production. It would be available for shipment in the US (including
Alaska), Canada, and to places where UPS can ship.

If this is of interest to you please contact me, and let me know how much of
the material you would want, assuming that it is affordable. Email to Russ
House at alchemy@mcs.com.

Also, we are looking for sources for the following materials:
Native potassium nitrate
Crystalline native cerussite (lead carbonate ore)
Native cinnabar

Thanks,

Russ House


Tue Jul 09 10:15:55 1996
Subject: 1318 Scholars of alchemy

Date: Sun, 7 Jul 1996 10:50:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: R. Brzustowicz

> Modern exact scholarship did not really exist much before the end of the
> 19th century. Sure, there were many alchemical writings before this time,
> but not works of scholarly analysis. This did not come into existence till
> the modern period.

I would like to recommend the doctoral dissertation of Kathleen Malone
O'Connor, 'The Alchemical Creation of Life (Takwin) and Other Concepts of
Genesis in Medieval Islam'. Even this one work would I think qualify
O'Connor as a scholar of alchemy. (UMI order No 9503804)

R Brzustowicz (brz@u.washington.edu)


Tue Jul 09 12:12:25 1996
Subject: 1319 Nicholas Flamel

A couple of weeks ago I met an american colleague in Glasgow University
Library. We had a discussion on Nicholas Flamel. I am not entirely sure what
the scholarly status of Nicholas Flamel is at present. Is there any
documentary evidence (contemporary records) of his existence before the
first appearance at the end of the 16th century of alchemical writings
attributed to him?

In the late 18th century Étienne-François Villain, wrote a series of books
documenting Flamel. Is this the only source we have for the Flamel history?

Essai d'une histoire de la paroisse de Saint Jacques de la Boucherie, oú
l'on traite de l'origine de cette eglise; de ses antiquités; de Nicolas
Flamel et Pernelle sa femme, et de plusieurs autres choses remarquables;
avec les Plans de la construction et du Territoire de la Paroisse, gravés en
taille-douce. Ouvrage intéressant pour les Paroissiens, et pour les
Personnes qui aiment l'Antiquité. Par M.L** V**[illain]. Paris, 1758.

Histoire critique de Nicolas Flamel et de Pernelle sa femme; recueillie
d'Actes anciens qui justificent l'origine et la médiocrité de leur fortune
contre les imputations des alchimistes. On y a joint le Testament de
Pernelle et plusieurs autres Pieces intéressantes. Par M. L. V***, Paris, 1761.

Vie de Nicolas Flamel et de Pernelle sa femme..., Paris, 1782.

It would be good to clear up this point of the legend and the documented
facts regarding Flamel.

Adam McLean


Tue Jul 09 12:38:26 1996
Subject: 1320 Theatre (France)

Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 12:27:50 +0000
From: Joel Tetard

Chris wrote :
> I'm very curious as to the connection between humor, alchemy and
> drama. Pardon me if this is an ignorant question, but I would love to hear
> about some of the intriguing functions of humor in this regard. >

Jacques Breyer wrote in French a very curious text which could be of
some interest to people looking for relationship between modern
theatre and alchemy, tarot,mythology, and esoterism in general...

"Oubah. Une Trilogie-Operative, puisee au Sang du Baphomet, Culte
Magique des Templiers." Self published in 1970. Breyer, 43 rue
Condorcet, 75009 Paris.

This text is written for "toute Personne ayant Compris la "Farce" par
dela les églises, et qui peut donc en rire avec Dieu au-dessus des
partis".
Note to French readers : ce texte a ete trouve par hazard (?) en
farfouillant dans les bacs des vendeurs de livres à prix brades...
Bonne chasse !

Best wiches

Joel Tetard


Tue Jul 09 12:38:31 1996
Subject: 1321 Music and alchemy

Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 12:37:46 +0000
From: Joel Tetard

For every people who are looking for relationship between alchemy and
music :

1) Some words about musical scales which take a very important place
in most of philosophical works from the early antiquity to the end of
XVIII.

As every pianist would (should) tell you, the modern scale used for
keyboards and other musical instruments having "fixed" sounds is in
fact "out of tune" in order to match with other instruments (brass
instruments mainly).

This scale was build in order to have equal semi-tones and is
in fact a kind of "aggrement" between antagonist interests (see your
favorite ancyclopedia for more information on the subject !).

Before the coming of this scale, occidental music was based on a large
number of tuning systems.

A well-known system is the Pythagorean scale which is build on "pure
quintes" (I did not find the translation from French. Sorry...). [Harmonics?].

This scale matches well with physical possibilities of wind
instruments (brass), has good musical properties and could be linked to
philosophical symbolism (see for instance Robert Fludd "Utriusque
cosmi historia" 1617).

Starting from a C ("arbitrary" tuned but in fact you are your own
"pitchpipe"...) you could build the Pithagoreean's scale using a single
constant ratio (for having "pure" quinte) :
C * (3/2) = G
G * (3/2) = D
R * (3/2) = A
A * (3/2) = E
E * (3/2) = B
B * (3/2) = F (sharp)

Reducing all these note to the same "octave" you will obtain the
following series :

C D E F G A B C
9/8 9/8 256/243 9/8 9/8 9/8 256/243

This scale is used nowadays for playing traditional instruments such
as Bagpipes (Highland Scottish ones, but also in Mongolia, Spain,
France, Maroco, etc...Pipes are a large world !), Appalacian Dulcimers
and other instruments using drones. (I am very fond of all of them !).

According to some authors (Atorene for exemple) a close relationship
exists between notes, days, planets and metals :

English system Latin system Day of the week Planets/metals
C Do Lunae dies Moon/silver
G Sol Martis dies Mars/Iron
D Re Mercurii dies Mercury/Quick silver
A La Jovis dies Jupiter/
E Mi Veneris dies Venus/Cooper
B Si Saturni dies Saturn/lead
F Fa Solis dies Sun/Gold)

Now, based on the previous "quinte serial", we can build the following
figure which is certainly known by most of the Forum's friends :

C/Moon/Siver

B/Saturn/lead D/Mercury/Quick silver

A/Jupiter/Tin E/Venus/cooper

G/Mars/Iron F/Sun/gold

This figure is an "heptagram" which could be found in a great number
of alchemical books... The traditional scale serial could be build in
turning clockwise from C.

2. "Natural scales" are commonly used in traditional musics in ALL
parts of the world. (Traditional Music, as for cooking, is in fact a
real cure against racism !). Looking for the different ways of singing
or tuning instruments around the world you will find how we lost
contact with our original roots and how poor we are with our
"improved" modern scale...
(Pssss, let me to tell you THE terrific secret : In fact, most of
commercial music is based on this "modern scale" and are a tool
used by a worldwide "a-culturation" conspiracy, in order to make a
"brave new world" based on a unique "aesthetic" system... ;-)
(Further discussions on this matter ?...Please, not in this forum !)

>From an other point of view, which could be linked to a kind of
"musical yoga", Natural musical scales could be used for diphonic
songs, i.e. the "Art of singing several voices in the same time"
(Diplomacy, "language of the Birds" or Phonetic Cabala ?...).
This way of singing was fairly common in Asia (Mongolia, Thibet) and I
guess it was the "right" way of singing occidental Gregorian
(please... see above !). Singers produce two or even more harmonics of
a fundamental note (used as a kind of drone), using their internal
resonators (mouth, sinus, stomach, etc.).
Some of you would be happy to notice there is an obvious link between
these "resonators" and Chakras...
Due to the fact it is more easy to practice this kind of Art rather
than to explain it, I prefer to give you the references of David
Hykes'record which is a real master piece. Try to find your own
harmonics !!!

3. Alchemy is said to be "Art of Music". For more information on this
matter which is in fact closely link to practical alchemy (rather than
speculative alchemy. Indeed !) see Canseliet's "L'Alchimy expliquée
sur ces textes classiques" and Atorene's "Laboratoire alchimique".
Solazaref's books which would be very helpfull too !.

4. Thibetan "singing bowls" are been said to be made of the seven
planetary metals. The way of making these wonderfull instruments is
secret but I guess some link would exist with Occidental Alchemy (see
Vigener's "particulier" and Solazaref's Introitus...)

In order to be "in tune" with all these matters I suggest the
following records :

Hildegard Von Bingen (1098-1179) :
- "Ordo Virtutum" (play of the Virtues)". by Carmen-Renate Koper,
William Mockridge and Sequentia singers. Deutsche Harmonia Mundi
(D-7800 Freiburg). Ref : GD77051
- "Chants de l'extase". by Carmen-Renate Koper, William Mockridge and
Sequentia singers. Deutsche Harmonia Mundi (D-7800 Freiburg). Ref :
05472 7752
- "Symphonia-Spiritual Songs". Sequentia singers. Deutsche Harmonia
Mundi (D-7800 Freiburg). Ref : GD 77020
Note : Hildegard Von Bingen was said to be an alchemist (?). Actually,
she wrote several books on plants. She was one of the spiritual lights
of the Occidental World. Her music is wonderfull !!!

Iegor Reznikoff :
"Alleluias et offertoires des Gaules"
Harmonia Mundi SA,
Mas de Vert,
F-13200 Arles, France
Ref : HMA 1901044.

Iegor Reznikoff teaches Philosophy in Paris X Nanterre University
(F-92000 Nanterre). He did important works concerning the ways of
singing Gregorian. "His originality and seriousness derive from the
fact that, for the first time since at least the 16th century, it
appears that someone has taken into consideration the oldest surviving
neumatic manuscripts as well as esthno-musicological knowledge. [...]
The following are some of the elements Reznikoff has taken into
account : the Indo-European basis ; the "Oriental", i.e; Jewish and
especially Greek influences which constantly affected the Gaules"
(previous name of the westen part of Europe which became France,
Belgium and North Italy).

David Hykes and the Harmonic Choir :
"Hearing Solar Winds"
OCORA-Radio France.Sept. 1988. Reprint in 1989.
Available form Harmonia Mundi France. Ref: HM 90.

Actually, all these records are powerful "soul tuners"...

Oh, so much words and noises !!! Let's place to the Art of Music
now...

Best wiches.

J Tetard

Ut queant laxis Resonare fibris...


Thu Jul 04 16:18:46 1996
Subject: 1322 Theatre

Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 12:33:14 +0100
From: William Hollister

>I'm very curious as to the connection between humor, alchemy and
>drama. Pardon me if this is an ignorant question, but I would love to hear
>about some of the intriguing functions of humor in this regard.

Did Robert Fludd really base his memory system on Shakespeare's Globe Theater?

Is it true that Strindberg, in his Occult Diaries, complained that everyone
was persecuting him with the scent of celery?

Is the comic section of Ben Johnson's The Alchemist a mocking, but very
efficient way of delivering an allegorical text?

When Johann Valentin Andreae referred to his Chemical Wedding as a
"Ludibrium," (play, joke, amusement), was not the Lutheran Minister giving
backhanded credit to the Rosicrucian movement?

Perhaps through dramatic humor we can transcend the earthly fiction that a
Gnostic deamon condemned us to live in.

Certainly the Chemical wedding is a dramatic interpretation of an
alchemical process. My question is simple: how can that drama be carried
out in the late twentieth century. Would it have to be modified in any way?
Did it ever "work" as "theatre?"

It is this last point that I would most like to see a larger discussion. I
understand that Shakespeare is not an alchemist, but a British renaissance
thinker. His use of Allegorical drama is most interesting in the fourth act
of The Tempest. Peter Greenaway's film interpretation interprets The
Tempest in a remarkable alchemical way. The images in that film strike the
imagination in wonderful ways; however, the film did not "entertain" me,
and the images are left to float in my imagination without a lasting
structure.

Andreae apparently wrote several plays "of a Shakespearian type." Were they
entertaining?

william@ns.terminal.cz


Wed Jul 10 23:53:16 1996
Subject: 1323 Sol, Luna, Earth.

Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 14:43:40 -0400
From: RawnClark

In Joel Tetard's wonderful post on musical scales new and old, he correlates
his findings to the heptagram of planets/metals. This brought to mind
several alchemical figures which seem to be depicting a specific passage of
the Work, in which the seven planets are arrayed in a specific pattern. The
pattern of planets varies from figure to figure, from artist to artist, but
the overall intent seems common to each.

I have read, though cannot now pinpoint where I read it, that the Sun brings
the influence of the other planets with him. While this idea is infered in
some of the figures, it seems absent from others.

In my process of trying to understand these symbols' practical meaning, my
mind keeps returning to an examination of the planetary symbols themselves.
When I look at them, they seem to be graphically depicting the relationship
and movement of related forces. These forces are specifically Sol, Luna and
Earth, symbolized by circle, crescent and equal-armed cross, respectively.
I've been trying to place them in a sequence that made alchemical sense
to me, to somehow line them up in an order that revealed the overall symbol's
meaning. [I should note here that I am completely aware of the fact that the
planetary symbols are also graphic descriptions of the physical properties of
their respective metals. I think however, that they mean more than just this
in many alchemical figures.]

My inclination to a strict Qabbalistic sequencing nets me very little in
relation to a physical work (though it provides ample inspiration for a
"spiritual" work!). Of the many options I've examined, few have been very
satisfying. However, as in all learning and especially in the learning of
alchemy, my perspective grows and what made no sense before often makes
glaringly simple sense at a later date. ;-) Such was the case when I placed
the planetary symbols in sequence determined by the tonal correspondences
provided by Joel. Lining them up, A through G, nets the sequence: Jupiter,
Saturn, Luna, Mercury, Venus, Sol, Mars. I have toyed with this sequence
previously, but didn't see it then in the same light as I do now.

Based upon my studies of alchemical literature...*and not upon extensive
laboratory work, so I'm speculating here*...I place this part of the process
represented by the 7-planets-arrayed glyph in the preparatory work of
maturing the Green Lion. I speculate that this seven-fold process results in
a) the Red Lion (holding within it the Sal and Sulphur); and b) the Spirits
(holding within it the Mercury).

Placed in the above tenuous and unproven context of my speculation, I line up
the planetary symbols into the following meaning:

A) Jupiter -- Luna descending upon the surface of the materia.
B) Saturn -- Luna penetrates the materia.
C) Luna -- The materia is completely Lunarized.
D) Mercury -- Luna brings Sol to the materia (either the Sol which lies
within her reflection of light, or this is an inference to Luna's magnetic
pull of Sol's Electric push).
E) Venus -- Sol descending upon the materia.
F) Sol -- The materia is completely Solarized.
G) Mars -- Sol penetrates the materia. The materia's Solarity projects
outward.

This seems to lead the materia through a process which begins with the
materia as a passive thing and ends with it as a radiant, emergant force.
Luna acts as a soft force, as it were, bringing with her, the seed of
activity, or the sol-light at her core.

But still this explanation is dissatisfying. There are too many things
dangling, too many gaping holes in its apparant applicability to the
laboratory Work. My laboratory experience being what it is (minimal), I am
at a standstill in deciphering this symbol's meaning and realize that only
more lab experience will remedy the situation. Until I do aquire sufficient
lab acumen, I would greatly appreciate Forum comments on my line of thinking.

A main question, assuming I'm on the right track, is do these 7 planets
symbolize a process that occurs during the sequential separation of the
spirits, essentially enacted upon the cloud of spirits themselves; or do they
refer to the forces which cause the actual separation of the spirits?

Best to you,
:) Rawn Clark
10 July 96

Thu Jul 11 13:08:33 1996
Subject: New mailing group on hallucinogenics

Graeme Wilson has agreed to act as the coordinator of a new mailing group to continue the thread of discussion on drugs, Crowley etc. To subscribe you should contact him at

gwilson@phoenix.earthlight.co.nz

Adam McLean

Fri Jul 12 09:39:24 1996
Subject: 1324 Arcanum Experiment

Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 14:30:55 -0700
From: Dennis William Hauck

I have translated the work of the eighteenth century German alchemist,
Dr. Gottlieb Latz, and am fascinated by his innovative lifelong work
with the Emerald Tablet, in particular, his deciphering of a chemical
formula from early Latin versions. He posits that the seven chemicals
described in the Tablet are components of the Arcanum Experiment, the
single laboratory experiment which openly demonstrates all the
principles of alchemy. In particular, he references two compounds
called "Pulvis Solaris" and "Liquor Hepatis." Is anyone familiar with
these terms and know their formula? From my progress so far in the
translation, it seems that the Pulvis contains "sulfur auratum" and red
mercuric oxide. The Liquor seems to be composed of hydrogen sulfide and
ammonia. However, I think there may be other ingredients or impurites
involved in the original formula that are not available today. Anyone
have any ideas?


Fri Jul 12 09:39:33 1996
Subject: 1325 On Exhalations

Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 15:33:02 -0600
From: Patrick J. Smith

Aristotle divided the physical world into the four elements: earth,
water, air, and fire. This division represented the first (four-fold)
differentiation of the unpatterned substrate (first matter) that
underlay the universe. While it is well known that the alchemists
adopted this Aristotelian division, it is perhaps less well known that
these were not strict divisions: one level graduated into another.
Thus there were some "earths" which were extremely gross (lead for
instance) and others which were much more subtle (such as beeswax).
The earths could be arranged in a scale of ascending subtlety that
eventually became a gross or heavy water. Similarly, different
"waters" could be arranged into a scale of increasing subtlety until
they merged into the denser forms of air---the mists and so forth that
hang near the earth and sea. In turn, air graduated into fire, and
fire (which was considered a completely passive element) was graduated
into the most subtle form which, some imagined, surrounded the throne
of God. The true Aristotelian elements were ideal substances never
found in nature. The air that we breathe, for instance, was thought
to be a mixture of all four elements in which air happens to
preponderate.

To alchemists, there was also *not* a strict division between matter
and spirit. The more subtle something was, the more spirit-like. And
conversely, the more gross something was, the more material-like.
This concept, which is unlike the current strict separation of these
two, becomes especially apparent in considering the ancient meaning of
*spirit*.

The Greek word *pneuma* could mean *spirit*, *air*, *breath*, or
*wind*. Its hebrew equivalent is *ruach*, which has a similar range
of meanings. In Latin, *spiritus* can also mean both *breath* and
*spirit*, and could refer to either a universal spirit or Anima Mundi,
or the individualized spirit of a man or other living creature. A
line from the Egyptian `Book of Breathings' (the SenSen papyrus),
which was used to insure the afterlife of the dead,
reads: "He will breathe like the soul[s of the gods] for ever and
ever."

The ancient philosophers observed that the air was in constant motion,
and in the movement of the winds, they saw the breath of nature. That
air could be felt, but neither seen nor held, was attributed to its
subtlety---hence spiritual quality. "Now *Wind*, *Air*, and
*Spirit*", wrote H.P.~Blavatsky in `The Secret Doctrine' "have ever
been synonymous in every nation. Pneuma (Spirit) and Anemos (Wind),
with the Greeks, *Spiritus* and *Ventus*, with the Latins, were
convertible terms, even if dissociated from the original idea of the
Breath of Life..." The Stoic concept of *pneuma* as the universal
world spirit was as much a part of the beginnings of alchemy as was
Aristotle's philosophy. Pneuma was thought to be responsible for
organizing and controlling all material bodies, and this resulted in
the vitalism inherent in alchemy from its inception.

When a baby is born, its first task in life is to draw a breath. The
child must continue to breathe throughout his life, and, at the end,
dies upon drawing his last breath. It should be borne in mind that
the ancient philosophers had no conception of oxygen, or its necessity
for either fire or metabolism. That discovery would be made many
centuries later. It *was* clear, however, that life depended upon
the breathing of air. In the first chapter of Genesis (which was said
to contain all the secrets of alchemy), God breathed the breath of
life into the inanimate clay which became Adam, the first man.
Orthelius, a late sixteenth-century alchemist, says that the Spirit
was `breathed into all things by the word of God, and embodied in
them.' Occultists often link the spirit or divine spark in man with
*inspiration*, which means literally something breathed into
him. Richard Cavendish writes:

"The first chapter of St. John enabled alchemists and occultists to
identify the creative Word of God with the Holy Spirit of Genesis,
with the life-principle, the divine breath breathed into Adam, and
with the spark of divine light trapped in matter."

These ideas gave rise to a number of strange practices, such as that
cited by Pliny in his Natural History, in which a certain Claudius
Hirpanus was said to have lived to the age of 155 years, by inhaling
the breath of young women! H.P. Blavatsky quotes Sir W. Grove,
F.R.S., as follows:

The ancients, when they witnessed a natural phenomenon, removed from
ordinary analogies, and unexplained by any mechanical action known to
them, referred it to a soul, a spiritual or preternatural power...
Air and gases were also at first deemed spiritual,
but subsequently they became invested with a more material character;
and the same words [pneuma], spirit, etc.,
were used to signify the soul or a gas; the very word gas, from
*geist*, a ghost or spirit, affords us an instance of the gradual
transmission of a spiritual into a physical conception.

Observe also that such modern words as `pneumatic' are derived from
the word `pneuma', and refer to the mechanical use of air.

From Aristotelian cosmology, the belief in the underlying unity of the
universe led alchemists to suppose that the influence of the universal
spirit could be utilized, either through the stars, or by
concentrating it within matter -- the philosopher's stone -- thus
obtaining that influence in the form of a chemical reagent.
F.~Sherwood Taylor wrote:

This notion, to us extremely bizarre, is at the root of most of the
alchemical practice and it can only be understood by those who have
grasped what the ancients meant by ``breath.'' The Greek *pneuma*,
the Latin *spiritus*, the Indian *prana* have a very similar
significance, but there is no word with such a meaning in modern
English because the very idea has disappeared....

Thus early Greek philosophers could say quite simply that the soul was
air. They do not, of course, mean to imply that what we call a soul
is the same as a mixture of oxygen and nitrogen: simply that the
principle of life was a sort of breath. Some likewise regarded the
atmosphere as a kind of reservoir of world soul, and thought that
living beings existed by drawing in this air---a breath of
life out of the soul of the world...

Yet at the same time this breath could be transformed into *things*,
and Aristotle, in a famous passage which is certainly one of the
sources of the idea of alchemy, supposes that all the metals are made
of two ``exhalations,'' two vapors, one moist, one dry or smoky, that
rise up through the earth...

To the two exhalations corresponded the two kinds of bodies that
originate in the earth; minerals and metals. The dry exhalation is
the cause of all minerals, such as realgar, orpiment, ochre, and
sulphur; hence these substances were thought to be composed mainly of
the `smoky' exhalation. The `vaporous' exhalation is the cause of all
metals, those bodies that are both fusible and malleable. All these
originate from the imprisonment of the vaporous exhalation in the
earth, the dryness of which compresses it and finally converts it into
metal. Hence, Martin Ruland could claim: ``Realgar is properly a
Mineral Smoke, which has something of the nature of Orpiment, or
Arsenic...'' Realgar is, in fact, an orange-red mineral, arsenic
sulphide, which is used in fireworks. But Rulandus can say it is a
mineral smoke because it could, apparently, be decomposed into such.
It cannot be over-emphasized that neither the Medieval nor ancient
alchemists understood the process of combustion, in which oxygen is
consumed from the air. If they could have performed some of their
experiments in vacuo, they would have observed that the sulphurs,
orpiments, and realgars melt just as do the metals. Instead, they
observed minerals such as sulphur apparently decompose into smoke!
Thus it was easy to assume that they originated from a ``smoky
exhalation''. By contrast, the alchemists observed that when metals
such as gold were heated sufficiently, they melted, and the resulting
liquid exhibited a high surface tension like quicksilver, tending not
to stick to surfaces---in effect the melted metals behaved like
mercury. Thus the mercurial principle was thought to underlie all
metals. Clearly, then, the alchemical principle of sulphur
corresponds to the `smoky exhalation', and mercury to the `moist
exhalation'.

Given the relationship between breath, pneuma, spirit, and the spark
of life, it was natural to suppose that the exhalations which diffused
through the earth might also be useful for human health. Indeed,
Cavendish wrote:

Bacon, who is claimed by occultists as a great adept, said that the
smell of earth is a tonic medicine. `The following of the plough hath
been approved for refreshing the spirits and procuring appetite.'
Spring is the best time for this, before the earth has `spent her
sweet breath in vegetables put forth in summer', or fresh earth should
be turned up with a spade. `Gentlewomen may do themselves much good
by kneeling upon a cushion and weeding.' Since the earth is the
source of growing crops and vegetation, inhaling its vapours should
preserve life, as Bacon hints. `I knew a great man that lived long,
who had a clean clod of earth brought to him every morning as he sate
in bed: and he would hold his head over it a good pretty while.'

The Chinese held similar notions of a ``breath'' flowing through the
earth in channels, or veins: Christopher Bird wrote: "The currents,
running through *(ching)*, or ``channels,'' carried the vapors or
``vital cosmic breath,'' *(ch'i)*, the equivalent of the
*pneuma*, or ``vital spirit,'' of the Greeks..."

Since, as it was supposed, metals and minerals originated from these
exhalations, it was believed in medieval Europe that one could locate
mines by looking for evidence of these exhalations. Agricola, writing
in his famous treatise on metallurgy and mining, `De Re Metallica'
(1556), suggested that mineral veins could be located by

``...observing the hoar-frosts, which whiten all herbage except that
growing over the veins, because the veins emit a warm and dry
exhalation which hinders the freezing of the moisture, for which
reason such plants appear rather wet than whitened by the frost...
also if the exhalation be excessively hot, the soil will produce only
small and pale-coloured plants. Lastly, there are trees whose foliage
in spring-time has a bluish or leaden tint, the upper branches more
especially being tinged with black or with any other unnatural colour,
the trunks cleft in two, and the branches black or discoloured. These
phenomena are caused by the intensely hot and dry exhalations which do
not spare even the roots, but scorching them, render the trees sickly;
wherefore the wind will more frequently uproot trees of this kind than
any others. Verily the veins do emit this exhalation... By these
signs of Nature a vein can be discovered.'' pp.~37-8.

Christopher Bird notes that "The exhalation, so similar to the
*ch'i* of the Chinese classics, was early thought to explain the
attraction of a dowsing rod in a miner's hands to the metallic vein
being sought..."

To illustrate the prevalence of the Aristotelian concept of
exhalations in medieval alchemy, consider the following passage from
Michael Sendivogius' `New Chemical Light:'

The metals are produced in this way: after the four elements have
projected their power and virtues to the centre of the earth, they
are ...distilled and sublimed by the heat of perpetual motion towards
the surface of the earth. For the earth is porous, and the air by
distillation through the pores of the earth is resolved into a water,
out of which all things are generated. You should know that the seed
of metals is the same, in the first instance, as the sperm of all
other things, viz., a vaporous moisture. Hence it is foolish to seek
the dissolution of metals in the first matter, which is nothing but a
vapour ...Now I said that all things are produced of a liquid air or a
vapour, which the elements distill into the centre of the earth by a
continual motion, and that as soon as the Archeus has received it, his
wisdom sublimes it through the pores, and distributes it to each
place, producing different things according to the diverse places in
which it is deposited... The vapour which is sublimed by heat from
the centre of the earth, passes either through cold or warm places.
If the place be warm and pure, and contain adhering to it a certain
fatness of sulphur, the vapour (or Mercury of the Sages) joins itself
to its fatness, and sublimes it together with itself. If in the
course of its further sublimation this unctuous vapour reaches other
places where the earth had already been subtilized, purified, and
rendered moist by previous ascending vapours, it fills the pores of
this earth, and with it becomes gold. But if this unctuous moisture
be carried to impure and cold places, it becomes lead; if the earth be
pure and mingled with sulphur, it becomes copper. For the purer the
place is, the more beautiful and perfect will the metal be. We must
also note that the vapour is constantly ascending, and in its ascent
from the earth's centre to its superficies, it purifies the places
through which it passes. Hence precious metals are found now where
none existed a thousand years ago, for this vapour, by its continual
progress, ever subtilizes the crude and impure, and as continually
carries away the pure with itself. This is the circulation and
reiteration of Nature. All places are being more and more purified:
and the purer they become, the nobler are their products. In the
winter this unctuous vapour is congealed by the frost. At the return
of spring it is set free, and is the *Magnesia* which attracts to
itself the kindred Mercury of the air, and gives life to all things
through the rays of the Sun, the Moon, and the Stars, thus bringing
forth grass, flowers, and the like, for Nature is never idle even
during a single moment. This, then, is the only true account of the
generation of Metals. The earth is purged by a long distillation, and
when the unctuous or fatty vapour approaches, the same are procreated,
nor are they ever otherwise begotten... -The Hermetic Museum II, pp.90-1.

Sendivogius thus identifies the vapour, which rises continually
through the earth's pores by a process of perpetual distillation, as
the source of all minerals and metals, and as the Mercury of the
Sages. The author of `Le Filet d'Ariadne' indicates that the metals
and minerals lose their germinative or regenerative powers when
removed from the mine, precisely because they are isolated from the
exhalations (which rise from the centre of the Earth through the wombs
or veins) that give them life. Thus, metals and minerals were thought
to be alive, but only when in contact with the earth. When removed
from the mines, they lost their life and generative power. But the
alchemists believed that they could be re-animated in the laboratory.

Note that the vapour, or exhalation, which rises through the pores of
the earth, driven by the internal fire of the earth, is like the
breath that *animates* all *animals*, which breath the alchemists (as
inherited from the ancient Greek philosophers) equated with spirit.
And just as this breath gives life to the animals; so analogously do
the minerals receive their life from the exhalations rising through
the pores of the earth, and passing through the mines; the fissures,
veins, and wombs of the earth. Consider also that, in the process of
alchemical sublimation, a vapour (or exhalation) is made to rise and
fall, to circulate through the glass matrass, thereby enabling the
material to breathe, and giving it life. Describing this process in
his `Principles', Philalethes wrote:

#14. The whole of this operation---which is like a distillation by
the Moon over the Earth---causes matter to rise as mist and to fall
back as rain; this is the reason why I counsel you to keep sublimation
continually steaming, in order that the Stone may have air and
live.

The alchemists, given their vitalistic view of nature, believed that
all matter contained a pneuma or spirit, which they identified as
mercury. Mercury was the spirit of any individual material
object---the vapour given off during heating---and it was regarded as
the unity underlying all diversity; the first matter. The mercury of
the alchemists was therefore not ordinary mercury but *philosopher's
mercury*, an ideal substance to which the mercury found in Nature is
only an imperfect approximation.

The first step of the alchemical Work was putrefaction, in which the
characteristics were stripped from the subject, thus reducing it to
First Matter. But since `pneuma' was considered to be the organizing
principle which gave form to the formless matter, this process
released the subject's spirit, or spark of life, in the form of a vapour.

In the process of solution, the calcined powder was dissolved in `a
mineral water which does not wet the hands'. This `dry water' was
mercury which was often obtained by condensing the vapours given off
during calcination (identified as philosopher's mercury) into the
mercurial liquid.

Indeed, some have suggested that condensed air is itself the
mysterious substance of the philosophers. A.E. Waite writes:

Aristeus, the philosphical alchemist, is supposed to have delivered to
his disciples what he terms the golden key of the Grand Work, which
will render all metals diaphanous, and man himself immortal. The
process appears to consist in the esoteric treatment of air... It is
congealed and distilled until it develops a divine sparkle, and
subsequently becomes liquefied. It is then subjected to heat, and is
reinforced by another atmosphere. After these and other treatments,
the elixer or solar marvel of all the sages, should reward the
alchemical worker. --The Occult Sciences, pg. 101.

In a condensed form, air became the "dry water", of which Pernety wrote:

The *Prima Materia* from which all has been made, which serves as a
basis for all the composites, seems to have been so mingled and
identified in them ...it could not be separated from them without
causing their destruction. Nature has left us an example of this
confused and formless mass, in that *dry water*, which does not
moisten, which may be seen rising from mountains, and which exhale
from some lakes, impregnated with the germs of things, and which
evaporates at the least heat. This dry water is that which forms the
basis of the *Ars Magna*, according to all Philosophers. He who would
know how to unite this volatile matter with its male, to extract from
it the Elements, and to separate them philosophically, could flatter
himself, so says d'Espagnet, *(Enchirid. Phys. restit. can. 49.)*,
that he had in his possession the most precious secret of nature, and
even the epitome of the essence of the heavens. --The Great Art, pg.75.

Returning to Michael Sendivogius and his `New Chemical Light', we find
a clue as to how the alchemists might have ``condensed air'' to form
their Mercury:

The operation thereof is as follows:
---You dissolve condensed air, and in it a tenth part of gold; seal it
up, and expose it to our fire, until the air is changed into powder,
and there will be seen, given the salt of the world, a great variety
of colours...

...Resolve diligently in your mind all that I have said about the way
in which the elements distil the Radical Moisture to the centre of the
earth, and how the terrestrial and centric sun again raises and
sublimes them, by its continual motion, to the surface of the earth.
Note also the correspondence which has been affirmed between the
celestial and the centric sun; for the celestial Sun and Moon have a
special power and a wonderful virtue in distilling upon earth by their
rays. For heat is easily united to heat, and salt to salt. As the
central sun has its sea and crude perceptible water, so the celestial
sun has its sea of subtle and imperceptible water (the atmosphere).
On the surface of the earth the two kinds of rays meet and produce
flowers and all things. Then rain receives its vital force out of the
air, and unites it to that of the saltpetre of the earth. For the
saltpetre of the earth is like calcined *Tarter*, and by its dryness,
attracts air to itself---which air it dissolves into water. For this
saltpetre itself was once air, and has become joined to the fatness of
the earth. The more abundantly the rays of the sun descend, the
greater is the quantity of saltpetre generated, and so also is the
harvest on earth increased... --The Hermetic Museum II, pp. 107-8.

Did Sendivogius refer to the ability of saltpetre to draw moisture out
of the air? To the medieval alchemists, this effect must have
appeared, just as with the formation of dew from the calm, clear,
night sky, to be a condensation of the air itself. In the ancient
world, dew was considered to be a revivifying agent---it descended
from heaven during the night to revivify and sustain the grasses and
other plants. It was also no doubt observed early on that nitre
(saltpetre) greened the vegetation, stimulated plant growth, etc.
Likely there was confusion between potassium nitrate and sodium
nitrate, the latter being especially deliquescent. Thus the greening
effects of nitre may have been attributed to its apparent ability to
condense air, and thus produce the same revivifying effect as dew.
And since air was considered as, essentially, the universal spirit,
the condensation of air was equivalent to the condesation of the
universal spirit---the ultimate aim of alchemy.

I welcome any further thoughts or other opinions on this material.
-Patrick (p-smith@nemesis.slc.unisysgsg.com)

Personal Note: Thanks to CRA for the motivation.

Fri Jul 12 09:39:42 1996
Subject: 1326 Is alchemy unique?

From: John Chas Webb
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 15:25:52 -1000

George Leake wrote:
| *I fail to how the following statement follows everything else in this
| message. Because there aren't more enlightened/Alchemist PhDs is no fault
| of Jung's. I fail to see how you argue one way or the other about Jung
| after that hanging statement of opinion.
| >If Jung was totally correct then there would certainly be many
| >enlighted/Alchemist Phd.'s.

***************************************************************

Your observation is completely correct. The posting was in response to a
previous posting which was edited out before it was placed in the forum.
However, I will respond to your specific observation.

However valuable Jung's contributions to the Psychology of Alchemy are,
there is, in my opinion, one major flaw. Typically, it is the "collective
flaw" of western thinking which is to proceed in the alchemical work as
though "you" are bringing forth the gold of the inner self. It is,
actually, the "you" which blocks the natural tendency of the inner gold to
express itself through you.

Man is the "naming animal" and, in my opinion, Jung certainly proved this
by helping "Humpty Dumpty" by giving names to all of his fragmented parts.
All of Jung's work takes place within the auspices of the "ego" and its
observations of its inner landscape. In Jungian psychology the goal is
"individuation", in alchemy the goal is disolution and liberation. Jung
trains the ego while pure alchemy disolves it. Jung puts you into the
world while alchemy takes you out of it.

I offer the following in support of my position and, I agree, that my
argument is somewhat extreme but never-the-less accurate from a
metaphysical point of view.
1) The successful alchemists are no longer here, they have extracated
themselves from this plane where matter has devoured spirit.
2) The "Alchemical" Teachings given to the masses are contained, in symbol
and text in the New Testament in the transformation of Jesus (flesh and
blood) into the Christ which is a symbol of the victory of light (gold)
over density (lead).
3) The Alchemical Teaching of the New Testament is to fix one's attention
firmly upon the "Creative Power" and then to allow one's self to flow past
the machinations of the contents of one's mind and its underpinnings
(which Jung calles the unconscious and subconscious). The key operative
for this "operation" is surrender so that gradually the inner light (the
gold or spark of God) shines through and creates resurrection or the re-
appearance of the eternal soul. (Note: it may be helpful to view this
process in a metaphysical/alchemical context and outside of the trappings
of contemporary religion).

My position is that If Jung were TOTALLY correct then there would be
regular appearances of enlightened, self actualized beings who fully
utilized his teachings. This is not the case! Jungian teachings rely upon
the existence of the "ego" which reappears in "the world" in a somewhat
less painful condition (which is the ultimate purpose of psychology). In
Alchemy the "ego" dissolves to permit the "alchemical marriage" where all
"naming" ceases and the duality of subject/object dis-integrates. A MAJOR
OBSTACLE for any "enlightened" psychotherapist is to encourage his or her
patient to allow his or her world to collapse and then be reconfigured by
"spirit". In Western thinking this is crazy and subjects the therapist to
severe legal complications. It is at this point that psychology and
metaphysics part company. This is the line that Jung could not cross.

Very Best Regards,
John Chas Webb
johnboy@aloha.net

Fri Jul 12 13:20:58 1996
Subject: 1327 Czech Alchemy - Franz Bardon

Date: Fri, 12 Jul 96 11:05:02 +0100
From: Danny Torbica

Dear Martin / Rawn

Many thanks for the posting on Franz Bardon. Have you got any more
information on him and in particular the organisation Universalia that you
mentioned.

please reply to me at d.s.torbica@open.ac.uk directly if you would like to
engage in further specific exchanges in this area.

I look forward to hearing from you.

danny

Fri Jul 12 13:21:07 1996
Subject: 1328 Alchemy today

From: John Chas Webb
Subject: Re: 1316 Alchemy today

In response to Waldemar Hammel's posting 1316 Alchemy today.

Please consider this:

As an alchemist the "they" that you observe is a projection of your own
inner states.

The unified God can most certainly apply to the "unified principle of
alchemia", in fact, it is a FUNdamental principle!

What you site as a binary division (+/-) is an expression of the principle
of duality. To the extent that you perceive duality it is because you
contain it. The work of the Alchemist is to begin to experience everything
around him or her as a unified whole. The mind, which operates only in the
physical realm (it needs "things" in order to function) sorts things into
opposites. (The willy-nilly attributes of quicksilver demonstrate this
perfectly). We know "hot" because we also know "cold". The mind MUST be
transcended in order to see all of the visible paradox as the expression of
ONE THING (GOD). This is not the God of traditional religion but the
unified God of the Alchemist who experiences all of the pairs of opposites
from the comfort of the Philosopher's Stone.

Our culture has divided the observable into "good" (God) and "evil"
(dEVIL). This is a somewhat nice psychological delusion that provides
comfort to be able to blame the "devil" for seeming bad happenings.
The challenge for the Alchemist is to extract him or herself from the
appearance of duality and thus requires a transformation of the Alchemist's
inner states. The Alchemical Teaching contained in Genesis gives us the
TOTAL SOLUTION. The answer is "to not know evil"!

What this means for the Alchemist is to first begin to remove any negative
or evil tendencies from his or her own personality or actions. Secondly,
to begin to view EVERYTHING as an expression of good.
To the extent that you perceive problems with the world you are actually
seeing your own inner landscape and have allowed yourself to become
critical of God's perfect creation!

The "golden" condition of the acomplished alchemist is to have removed all
of the dross from the gold. This describes the process of purifying one's
own consciousness. When you finally rest in the "good" (gold) you then
will agree with "God" (see Genesis) who created everything and saw that it
was GOOD! And who then warned to "not taste of the knowledge of evil"
because the knowledge and recognition of evil shows you the "other half" of
God that will cause your death. Once it is that you know evil you must
then enter the Old Testament (Oh Yuck!).

So the ways of the world which you observe are your ways and the way back
to wholeness is to purify the gold (to remove the dross of "evil"). The
initial delusion to overcome is that the Alchemist must change the world.
This is foolishness, the Alchemist changes his or her character and
consciousness and then the outer world changes as if by magic! The
admonition to "not judge" is a key piece of advice in this phase of The
Great Work.

Perfectly Yours,
John Chas Webb
johnboy@aloha.net


Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 14:38:13 +0100
Subject: 1328a Is alchemy unique?

Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 06:09:15 -0700
From: John Williams

>>>>>[MESSAGE TEXT DELETED]<<<<<
>I offer the following in support of my position and, I agree, that my
>argument is somewhat extreme but never-the-less accurate from a
>metaphysical point of view.
>1) The successful alchemists are no longer here, they have extracated
>themselves from this plane where matter has devoured spirit.

I would have to disagree. Based on the (internal) Duality principle,
thefact that you don't see the alchemists that are here is because of
you. Ofan internal polarity sorting on your part of what defines
Alchemy. Alchemy is, by your definition and others, the metaphysical
unification of all seperate parts.

For instance, my interest in Alchemy has been sparked by current
"leading-edge" neuro-physics, physical chemistry and quantum mechanics.
To quote a favorite (un-accepted Alchemist) author, advance a theory in
a very un-Western fashion, and experiment with it. If the theory
functions, continue the theory. If not, discontinue. Either way,
become involved in your work. Do not polarity seperate, do not dissolve
the totality of the experience into meaningless half-truths and "hot"
vs. "cold."

>>>>>[MESSAGE TEXT DELETED]<<<<<
>My position is that If Jung were TOTALLY correct then there would be
>regular appearances of enlightened, self actualized beings who fully
>utilized his teachings. This is not the case! Jungian teachings rely
>upon the existence of the "ego" which reappears in "the world" in a
>Somewhat less painful condition (which is the ultimate purpose of
>psychology). In Alchemy the "ego" dissolves to permit the "alchemical
>marriage" where all"naming" ceases and the duality of subject/object
>dis-integrates. A MAJOR OBSTACLE for any "enlightened" psychotherapist
>is to encourage his or her patient to allow his or her world to
>collapse and then be reconfigured by "spirit". In Western thinking
>this is crazy and subjects the therapist to
>severe legal complications. It is at this point that psychology and
>metaphysics part company. This is the line that Jung could not cross.
>>>>>[MESSAGE TEXT DELETED]<<<<<

Jung has seen a larger audience of readers and believers in the last
four years thanks to some bizarre quirk of nature. His works have been
summerized in the entertainment community providing many with a
"laymen's" understanding of Jung. However, those dedicated to knowledge
(Alchemy?) would certainly take the time to read further into this
fascinating author.

Suffice it to say, I agree with your interpretation above of Jung. And
I would add that the same bizarre quirk of nature, I am not alone in my
sudden interest and pursuit of Alchemy. However, I am certainly one
step closer to the attainment of the proverbial fruit of knowledge. I
am accessing fonts (of knowledge) such as this.

Any further comparisons between Alchemy and "modern" Quantum Theory, and
similar veins of research would be welcome. "Modern" Quantum Theory
doesn't compare to Alchemy (disclaimer) because it does seperate the
spirit from the matter. Alchemy perceives the two as a unified element.

jackal / john


Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 17:12:01 +0100
Subject: 1329 Is Alchemy Unique?

In response to John Williams 'and filling the need to play devil's
advocate' let me offer this response to the two points that you
made:

1) The successful alchemists are no longer here, they have extracted
themselves from this plane where matter has devoured spirit.

response: How can you be sure? If we were to separate the Universes
into various levels of evolution where the material existence is at
the lowest level this may hold true, and we would perceive the next
step up in evolution as being the shedding of our corporeal bonds
into pure spirit. But ponder this thought: If we truly exist in an
infinite Universe and possibly an infinite number of infinite
universes existing both in corporeal and spiritual form, what would
be the best 'form' to explore these Universes? For as corporeal
entities we can experience things that the spirit cannot, and as
spiritual entities we can experience things the body cannot, so to
fully taste all the fruits the universes have to offer it would seem
logical that the best form would be comprised of both.
Perhaps there is a delicate balance between spirit and matter, a
razors edge, that all beings are subject to throughout their entire
existence. To stray too far off of either side of the razor would
lead us off into the purely material or purely spiritual and away
from the path of the enlightened.
I believe that some of the successful alchemists may still be
here 'by choice and when needed' but how could they possibly make
themselves known to those who are not yet able to comprehend how they
exists?
For matter cannot consume spirit unless spirit allows itself to
be consumed and forced out of balance.
(for reference use the example of the legend of Elias Artisia)
Perhaps the enlightened are making regular appearances, but only
to those who are capable of accepting their teachings.
Just something to think about. I believe this covers both major
points you raised.

Darren M Swanick


Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 17:16:33 +0100
Subject: 1330 Introductory material on Alchemy

I am new to this list and am quite new to alchemy in general. I was
wondering if someone might have some recommended introductory texts to
give me a better background of the subject. I have visited the web
site, but what i am looking for now is a good introduction to the field
in general. Any help would be greatly appreciated; private
replies are preferred to keep the list traffic down.

Thanks much,
Bob
--
Robert A. Luscombe Email: ralst37+@pitt.edu
121 Walter Street
Pittsburgh, PA 15210
412/488-0941


Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 17:51:24 +0100
Subject: 1331 Adept?

From: calhhh
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 10:55:22 -0400

Dear Forum Members :

It is clear now that in our days we are seeing a great surge
of interest about the ROYAL ART, and I think that together with
its study, it is important to divest alchemy of all the
superstitions and misconceptions that for one reason or other
have accompanied it through the last centuries ...

I know that the basic definition, at least in alchemical terms,
of an ADEPT represents an individual who has completed the
Great Work, therefore having obtained the LAPIS PHILOSOPHORUM.
However many things have been said about the "psychic powers",
"longevity", "breaking the cycles of reincarnations", etc. that
and adept may obtain when indeed he reaches such a state.

Does an Adept, once the STONE is accomplished necessarily know
or understand All the laws of Nature ? Upon ingesting The Stone,
does he attains automatically some kind of illumination ?

In my opinion, walking, enjoying and learning while pursuing the
Alchemical Path, as in any other Path towards Light, is in itself
a very important part of the Goal, but it is also true that most
of us that undertake the rather long and difficult road of
Alchemical Works, is searching for the Stone ...

Therefore, I would appreciate tremendously to hear from the forum
members, what are the expectations of ADEPTHOOD ....

Does the Alchemist to become properly and ADEPT must ingest
THE STONE .... Does that produces a trascendent change in his
physical/subtle bodies ?

Looking forward for your comments, remain fraterly yours,

ORCIS
calhhh@mail.pananet.com


Tue Jul 16 13:25:52 1996
Subject: 1332 Sol, Luna, Earth.

From: "John Chas Webb"
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 12:50:09 -1000

| Reply to Rawn Clark's post #1323
| who wrote (edited):
|
|Do the 7 planets symbolize a process that occurs during the sequential
|separation of the
|spirits, essentially enacted upon the cloud of spirits themselves; or do
|they refer to the forces which cause the actual separation of the spirit?

***************************************************************************

This response has its foundation in esoteric astrology as it applies to alchemy and is based upon the following presumptions/observations:
1) The processes of nature are designed to produce gold out of the substances which co-operate with it.
2) The individual planets DO NOT symbolize a process but EACH planet symbolizes a condition. (for instance Mercury, by itself, is not a process but, rather, a condition)
3) The interaction of the various conditions represented by the
individual planets reveal the processes.
4) The "forces" which cause the actual separation is only 1 force with different attributes. This force operates invisibly until the Alchemist includes him/herself as one of the "substances" being operated upon.
5) "God" is the Supreme Alchemist (as well as the Great Geometer) and
the processes of "God" are revealed by the movement and interaction of the components of the solar system. (As above-so below).
6) All of the music ever written has its genesis in 7 notes.
7) The assignment of notes to the spheres is an ADDITIONAL WAY to describe the properties and interaction of the spheres in a musical way.

An Alchemist can observe the movements of the planets, much like an astronomer, and never begin the "work" of alchemy. In order for the work of alchemy to begin the observer/alchemist MUST place him or herself in relationship to the movements of the planets. The way that this is accomplished is by superimposing the movements of the planets over the placements of the planets at the time of the birth of the neo/alchemist.

This way, as an example, when firey Mars transits the Alchemist's Mercury then he or she can record the event along with all of his or her self-observations. The timing of "alchemical experiments" to celestial events reinforces this process. In fact, the experiments of the alchemist attempt to duplicate the processes which are revealed by the movements of the planets. Therefore, it is extremely helpful to have some knowledge of the attributes assigned by the Alchemist to each of the heavenly spheres and their respective metal.

Regarding the planetary symbols - a circle indicates spirit, a cross indicates matter, a cresent indicates duality/polarity. So the symbol of Venus, the metal of which is copper (a superior "conductor) is a circle on top of a cross. This indicates that the condition of Venus is where Spirit has mastery over Matter. As Venus represents love and aesthetics, the symbolic message is that love is the "process" which extracts spirit from the trappings of matter. Firey Mars, on the other hand, has an arrow pointing away from the circle of spirit which indicates the condition of activity which is contrary to the natural tendency of spirit (e.g. warfare/conflict). Please also note that the Earth is positioned between Venus and Mars as an indication of the human condition. We can then "travel" to the Sun (gold) via Venus and Mercury OR we can confront Saturn (lead) by following the "direction" of Mars! One path creates density and one path creates liberation. Liberation is the path of the Alchemist, the path of transmuting lead to gold!

It is my opinion that you can arrange and rearrange the position of the planets and their corresponding notes, however, it will take on no real meaning whatsoever until you first understand how your planets (and notes) are arranged by investigating your astrological birth chart and then
relating it to the current movement of the spheres.

B Natural,
John Chas Webb
johnboy@aloha.net

Tue Jul 16 13:26:01 1996
Subject: 1333 Is alchemy unique?

Date: Tue, 16 Jul 96 14:47 NZST
From: Pat Zalewski

>From: John Williams
>>>>>>[MESSAGE TEXT DELETED]<<<<<
>>I offer the following in support of my position and, I agree, that my
>>argument is somewhat extreme but never-the-less accurate from a
>>metaphysical point of view.
>>1) The successful alchemists are no longer here, they have extracated
>>themselves from this plane where matter has devoured spirit.
>
>I would have to disagree. Based on the (internal) Duality principle,
>thefact that you don't see the alchemists that are here is because of
>you. Ofan internal polarity sorting on your part of what defines
>Alchemy. Alchemy is, by your definition and others, the metaphysical
>unification of all seperate parts.
>
>For instance, my interest in Alchemy has been sparked by current
>"leading-edge" neuro-physics, physical chemistry and quantum mechanics.
>To quote a favorite (un-accepted Alchemist) author, advance a theory in
>a very un-Western fashion, and experiment with it. If the theory
>functions, continue the theory. If not, discontinue. Either way,
>become involved in your work. Do not polarity seperate, do not dissolve
>the totality of the experience into meaningless half-truths and "hot"
>vs. "cold."
>
>>>>>>[MESSAGE TEXT DELETED]<<<<<
>>My position is that If Jung were TOTALLY correct then there would be
>>regular appearances of enlightened, self actualized beings who fully
>>utilized his teachings. This is not the case! Jungian teachings rely
>>upon the existence of the "ego" which reappears in "the world" in a
>>Somewhat less painful condition (which is the ultimate purpose of
>>psychology). In Alchemy the "ego" dissolves to permit the "alchemical
>>marriage" where all"naming" ceases and the duality of subject/object
>>dis-integrates. A MAJOR OBSTACLE for any "enlightened" psychotherapist
>>is to encourage his or her patient to allow his or her world to
>>collapse and then be reconfigured by "spirit". In Western thinking
>>this is crazy and subjects the therapist to
>>severe legal complications. It is at this point that psychology and
>>metaphysics part company. This is the line that Jung could not cross.
>>>>>>[MESSAGE TEXT DELETED]<<<<<
>
>Jung has seen a larger audience of readers and believers in the last
>four years thanks to some bizarre quirk of nature. His works have been
>summerized in the entertainment community providing many with a
>"laymen's" understanding of Jung. However, those dedicated to knowledge
>(Alchemy?) would certainly take the time to read further into this
>fascinating author.
>
>Suffice it to say, I agree with your interpretation above of Jung. And
>I would add that the same bizarre quirk of nature, I am not alone in my
>sudden interest and pursuit of Alchemy. However, I am certainly one
>step closer to the attainment of the proverbial fruit of knowledge. I
>am accessing fonts (of knowledge) such as this.
>
>Any further comparisons between Alchemy and "modern" Quantum Theory, and
>similar veins of research would be welcome. "Modern" Quantum Theory
>doesn't compare to Alchemy (disclaimer) because it does seperate the
>spirit from the matter. Alchemy perceives the two as a unified element.
>
>jackal / john
>--------------------------------------

Please forgive me for leaving in the whole of the above text before replying
as I felt it was necessary to catch the implication of the thread. First and
foremost I have always though that Quantum Theory and Alchemy go hand in
hand. I do not see in Quantum theory a seperateness of matter and spirit.
The two are part of an implicate order or spiral. Just recently I was
watching a lecture given by Bohm on Television where division did not come
into it.I notice you used the `modern' to separate yourself from the old
concept. I presume you are talking about the work of Dr. Grof which is about
a decade old. Pesonally I prefer Pibram though. Bohm actually called things,
as a form to distinguish things, `relatively independent subtotalities'. I
am no expert in these matters but I would like some more of Quantum theory
and alchemical imagery to be linked more.

Tue Jul 16 13:26:09 1996
Subject: 1334 Reviews, Critiques, Opinions

From: Marcella Gillick
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 11:56:40 +0000

Hello Adam & all on the list.

I find myself lost in an ocean of information, misinformation, allegory and
secrecy. I feel no longer able to discern what is factual/useful. What I
would benefit from is some sort of guidance/debate as to which books etc
should be taken seriously and which would be considered rubbish by
more experienced people, and more importantly, WHY. (For example, has
anyone read Hermes Unveiled by Roy Norville? - it tied me up in knots, left
me considering everything, yet doubting everything).
Still along the same vein, I would also like any opinions on the theory
that if you are following someone (i.e. Guru, Master, Teacher), then you are
surely on the wrong path, as we are all different and thus all have to find
our own individual path.
Apologies if this is the wrong forum for my query.

Tue Jul 16 13:37:18 1996
Subject: 1335 Is Alchemy Unique?

Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 14:04:00 +0200 (MET DST)
From: douwe

>Darren M Swanick wrote:
>Perhaps there is a delicate balance between spirit and matter, a
>razors edge, that all beings are subject to throughout their entire
>existence.

There is a material or physical minimum to which the person should be
brought with his whole being, in this minimum he will be able to contain the
World which is beyond this one, and all its densities.
This body could be called the body of Jesus just as he accomplished the
same, or speaking with St. John, 'Not of this world but in this world'.
This is a delicate balance, in which the polarity of the body is changed
even up to the smallest organ of the body.
This balance comes to exist because of a transmutation/transfiguration from
inside to the outside trough the help of a selfless and pure radiation which
doesn't tolerate any material tendency.

>To stray too far off of either side of the razor would
>lead us off into the purely material or purely spiritual and away
>from the path of the enlightened.

Isn't what you call spirit and matter two sides of the same coin?, maybe it
is the concentration on the inner side of coin itself which gives the
healthy balance, because you are not consciously working with of matter or
spirit, it becomes so to say a secondary part to the process.

I personally start to think that all which can be divided is matter, and all
that cannot be changed in any way is pure spirit.
In this way the word spirit is a bit difficult though, because is it the
Spirit beyond matter, the spirit in matter, a group-spirit, a ghost?,
alcohol, ether,? :-(, (this is the same problem which you find in alchemy
with Mercury, and you'll often have to look at the context to find out,
which kind of mercury the writer is talking about.)
I have made a clear division between the two forms of spirit, the Holy Ghost
and the spirit within nature... (which contains many forms)...
Even the first contains many forms if it is seen from a certain (lower)
perspective but then in a progressive way, as a
always-rectifying-towards-the-non-material way.
I think one should keep it with these two forms of spirit because otherwise
the divisions make it confusing.
So I have a small difficulty about what you define as spiritual... (in my
own writings I write the Eternal, and Unchangeable things with a capital
letter, and all of this world with a small letter at the beginning, because
you can have Eternity, and eternety, etc.)

> I believe that some of the successful alchemists may still be
>here 'by choice and when needed' but how could they possibly make
>themselves known to those who are not yet able to comprehend how they
>exists?
> For matter cannot consume spirit unless spirit allows itself to
>be consumed and forced out of balance.

In this case spirit wouldn't be spirit any more, it is matter which will be
forced out of balance in such a way that chaos starts to exist.
The Radiation of the New Order can Polarize this chaos in a different
(selfless) way.

On this path there are stages of a half material and a half spiritual
existence, but they are always accessed apart from each other, they don't
allow to be mixed.
It feels as if the material part draws you down by the selfish desire for
propagation, and the higher part draws you up by the desire and a absolute
sense of liberation.
Eventually there is a conjunction but not after matter has given up the
struggle by its selfish rules.

This whole thing is deep, and in a way the core of alchemy, in this case it
is good to think of two eagles or lions devouring each other, King devouring
his son, saturn devouring a stone, because something Definite will win.

Apart from all of this, there is no true full Union with the Eternal Truth
while your in matter, for the simple reason that this cannot manifest in
matter as it is, hence the carthars died smiling in a profound peace, even
though the underwent a violent death, the same holds true with many
alchemist and others.
A second death is nothing but a laying off of a shell, a fully aware journey
towards true Liberation, a rushing foreward towards Eternal Freedom and
Liberation.

douwe.
darus@xs4all.nl
Sapientae apex, desperatio de rebus mundi.

Tue Jul 16 17:03:02 1996
Subject: 1336 Reviews, Critiques, Opinions

Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 10:33:25 -0500
From: george leake

>From: Marcella Gillick
> I find myself lost in an ocean of information, misinformation, allegory and
>secrecy. I feel no longer able to discern what is factual/useful. What I
>would benefit from is some sort of guidance/debate as to which books etc
>should be taken seriously and which would be considered rubbish by
>more experienced people, and more importantly, WHY. (For example, has
>anyone read Hermes Unveiled by Roy Norville? - it tied me up in knots, left
>me considering everything, yet doubting everything).
*interesting. First of all, some of this would be de rigeur for veterans.
Can you share with us your private email address so not to take up
everyone's time?

*there are historical facts, scientific truths, both of which are
demonstrable (though one can quibble over whether measurement is ever
really accurate), and then there are aspects of this study which are more
subjective. Which makes assigning authority to the subject a bit difficult.
*what have you read about alchemy? I find that Jung's chapter in his book
Psychology and Alchemy entitled "Religious Ideas in Alchemy" (princeton
edition) a good intro. For another modern perspective, you might look at
Frater Albertus' Alchemists Handbook. Both of these are straightforward
treatments for the most part of alchemy.

> Still along the same vein, I would also like any opinions on the theory
>that if you are following someone (i.e. Guru, Master, Teacher), then you are
>surely on the wrong path, as we are all different and thus all have to find
>our own individual path.

*this gets into the realm of subjective truths. Personally, while I believe
one needs to take in all information, one still has to decide for oneself.

-G.Leake, 512-471-9117 taliesin@mail.utexas.edu

Tue Jul 16 17:31:57 1996
Subject: 1337 Reviews, Critiques, Opinions

Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 09:16:45 +0300
From: Ros Bangham

> I find myself lost in an ocean of information, misinformation, allegory and
>secrecy. I feel no longer able to discern what is factual/useful. What I
>would benefit from is some sort of guidance/debate as to which books etc
>should be taken seriously and which would be considered rubbish by
>more experienced people, and more importantly, WHY. (For example, has
>anyone read Hermes Unveiled by Roy Norville? - it tied me up in knots, left
>me considering everything, yet doubting everything).
> Still along the same vein, I would also like any opinions on the theory
>that if you are following someone (i.e. Guru, Master, Teacher), then you are
>surely on the wrong path, as we are all different and thus all have to find
>our own individual path.

From Alchemist's Handbook - Frater Albertus; "Sooner or later, most
students experience a desire to find an Adept in order to become his pupil
or disciple. But no matter how sincere such a desire is, it is futile for
the student to attempt to locate a teacher versed in the Grand Arcanum.
"When the pupil is ready, the Master will appear." ... For it takes more
than mere study. An honest heart, a clean heart, a true heart, a benevolent
and contrite heart accomplishes more than all the book learning can ever
do. Yet strangely enough, learning must accompany the virtues just cited.
Without a knowledge and an understanding of natural laws and their
corresponding spiritual parallels, no one could ever truly be called an
Alchemist or a Sage."
R

Tue Jul 16 17:44:11 1996
Subject: 1338 Is Alchemy Unique?

Date: Tue, 16 Jul 96 17:00 +0100
From: Waldemar Hammel

Darren M.Swanick wrote:

>In response to John Williams 'and filling the need to play devil's
>advocate' let me offer this response to the two points that you
>made:.......

Three points I would like to ask:

1)
What are successful alchemists?
Can you proof the existance of "successful alchemists" in living dates, names, and work?

2)
What are "the enlightend", how is that proofable?
Is to be enlightend a post-death definition given to some alchemists, or is it a
"title" which was choosen by themselves?
And how can it be demonstrated, that some men and women were "enlightend"?

3)
What is that curious idea, that spirit may be a higher level of evolution than matter?
Could it perhaps be that spirit (mental activities, neurological life) is only a systemic emanation of matter?
Would You seriously argue that the functions of a TV are existing and living independent of the machines hardware?
Is it not the same with men?
How can you proof, that mental power survives the decline and death of body (matter)?
To me the spirit (mental activities of the brain) is only that systemic emanation of my hardware body. That body has got a structure which enables it to think and to have consciousness. So my spirit (mental live) is a quality-emanation of the bodies (quantity)-structure, the information is "hidden" in the structure. And that is a very great miracle, better than the simple (picked up out of the air)-statement, that spirits are independant from bodies.
The only negative for that kind of alchemia that you describe:
my hypothesis implicates, that spirits (and any kinds of mental activities) will not survive the decline and death of body!
By that nothing can be spiritual living that is not really living in the common meaning.
For me that is a great secret, and information theory has to say much about that idea. (that principle is called "emergencia" by the new science of synergetics
(for reference see Herman Haken: Synergetics), it treats exactly with that problem: how emerges quality out of quantity?)).

With my best regards
Waldemar Hammel


Tue Jul 16 17:45:25 1996
Subject: 1339 Adept?

Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 15:42:39 +0100
From: al4302

>I know that the basic definition, at least in alchemical terms,
>of an ADEPT represents an individual who has completed the
>Great Work, therefore having obtained the LAPIS PHILOSOPHORUM.
>However many things have been said about the "psychic powers",
>"longevity", "breaking the cycles of reincarnations", etc. that
>and adept may obtain when indeed he reaches such a state.

>Does an Adept, once the STONE is accomplished necessarily know
>or understand All the laws of Nature ? Upon ingesting The Stone,
>does he attains automatically some kind of illumination ?

As you know I am not an adept by any means but I have the good
fortune to be under the instruction on a man who has made
the stone. I can pass on to you what I have been told but I
cannot give you the proof that I have seen.
Most of the things that are said of this opus are true, in
fact the truth is stranger that the fiction.
The stone is medicine for the one who makes it and this
is why it is ingested, it is this that promotes health
although to anyone not meant to ingest someone elses stone
it may promote death. It can be ingested by the Alchemists
student this is on a twice yearly basis. This helps one
along with the work but it is not a short cut. You can
see this in the works of Crowley who himself had access
to someones stone altough he never quite managed it for
himself.
It is illumination that makes possible the stone, yes all
the laws of the universe are understood in a flash but this
has to happen before the stone is complete and in order to
complete it one must first know how "GNOSIS"
What is important to understand is that the work is carried
out in both worlds (Matter & Spirit) at the same time but by
opposing methods. That is, illumination within leads
to the first practical step which leads to further illumination
within and so on until the Great Gnosis occurs and you are left
with the knowledge of how to complete the work.
This is my understanding of what I have been told I hope it
is of as much help to you as it has been to me.

Have faith and contemplate, and then contemplate again for
the vilest lead of my written word may contain the purest gold.

Tue Jul 16 17:46:19 1996
Subject: 1340 Is Alchemy Unique?

Subject: Re: 1329 Is Alchemy Unique?
From: John D. O'Brien

> In response to John Williams 'and filling the need to play devil's
> advocate' let me offer this response to the two points that you made
> (snip....)
> Perhaps the enlightened are making regular appearances, but only
> to those who are capable of accepting their teachings.
> Darren M Swanick

Exactly; When the student is ready, the teacher will appear.

John D. O'Brien obriens@sound.net

Tue Jul 16 17:49:36 1996
Subject: 1341 Adept?

Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 09:38:09 -0500 (CDT)
From: John D. O'Brien

> It is clear now that in our days we are seeing a great surge
> of interest about the ROYAL ART, and I think that together with
> its study, it is important to divest alchemy of all the
> superstitions and misconceptions that for one reason or other
> have accompanied it through the last centuries ... >ORCIS
> calhhh@mail.pananet.com

I disagree; For exactly the reason that you state in the first part of
your sentence above, the arcana of Alchemy needs to remain.

John D. O'Brien obriens@sound.net

Wed Jul 17 09:31:05 1996
Subject: 1342 Is Alchemy Unique?

Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 15:03:58 -0700
From: John Williams

>In response to John Williams 'and filling the need to play devil's
>advocate' let me offer this response to the two points that you
>made:
>
>1) The successful alchemists are no longer here, they have extracted
>themselves from this plane where matter has devoured spirit.

Thank you for responding, however, I do not believe that that was *my* point.

>response: How can you be sure? If we were to separate the Universes
>into various levels of evolution where the material existence is at
>the lowest level this may hold true, and we would perceive the next
>step up in evolution as being the shedding of our corporeal bonds
>into pure spirit. But ponder this thought: If we truly exist in an
>infinite Universe and possibly an infinite number of infinite
>universes existing both in corporeal and spiritual form, what would
>be the best 'form' to explore these Universes? For as corporeal
>entities we can experience things that the spirit cannot, and as
>spiritual entities we can experience things the body cannot, so to
>fully taste all the fruits the universes have to offer it would seem
>logical that the best form would be comprised of both.

I agree wholeheartedly with you. An Alchemist, by nature, accepts the
totality of the experience for whatever it is. Only those bound by the same
insight can comprehend. Similar in form to a Quantum Physicist attempt to
explain the leading theory to a plumber without a clue about physics.

> I believe that some of the successful alchemists may still be
>here 'by choice and when needed' but how could they possibly make
>themselves known to those who are not yet able to comprehend how they
>exists?

Again, I agree with you. As far as how could they? Alchemists, as I
understand them so far, are very "selfish" people in the eyes of most. They
are concerned solely with personal advancement. Through them, other
like-minded people (other Alchemists or Apprentices) are advanced because of
their own drive for personal advancement.
But, to answer your question. If you met a Alchemist, what do you
think they would be like? If you don't have an idea of what kind of
Alchemist you are looking for, or looking to become, how can you find a mentor?

My favorite allagory (sp) being, "If you're trying to fly a plane to Alaska,
you must first know where you are before you can get there. From Toronto,
Canada, it would be a several hour trip west. But, if you think you are in
Toronto, and are actually in Hawaii. You will certainly end up on foreign
shores."

jackal @ qnis.net aka John Williams


Wed Jul 17 09:31:15 1996
Subject: 1343 Adept?

Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 15:13:13 -0700
From: John Williams

>Therefore, I would appreciate tremendously to hear from the forum
>members, what are the expectations of ADEPTHOOD ....
>
>Does the Alchemist to become properly and ADEPT must ingest
>THE STONE .... Does that produces a trascendent change in his
>physical/subtle bodies ?

Expectations of Adepthood: "Life is a journey, not a goal."

Similarly, Adepthood is a Journey, not a goal. Adepthood is the summation
of who you are, the zen-like ability to take no action and yet accomplish
much, the knowing of when to act, and when acting, act without hestitation
or regret. Adepthood is often tied to the philosophers stone, yet it is not
the summation of it, if so, the dependancy upon the stone is no different
than any chemical dependancy, and just as crippling. Take awway the stone,
and enlightenment ceases? Nay, I think not.

As far as rumors of physic powers, and such, the Human Potential Movement of
the late 60s and 70s proclaimed that such things were possible. In fact,
many drug users of the time (including Timothy Leary) were in fact searching
solely for enlightenment and insight into the nature of humanity. It is
only recently (the last 15 years) that drug use has become the problem of
the irresponsible and the downtrodden. (e.g., American Indian Peyote
rituals.) The Human Potential Movement sees the activity of the brain as
proof of the under-use of the "hardware" we have available to us. Like
running an old 8088 game on a Pentium 133 MHz. Not much of a challenge.
But imagine if you've never seen a computer, have no reference for better?
Would not that 8088 game seem like the wonderful thing it was for an 8088?

I believe in the Philosophers Stone, I believe that the effects it has are
capable of enlightening you to your potential, or to expand your potential,
but it still requires you to do something with it. The Stone is a means,
not an end.

Disclaimer: That's my opinion. =)

jackal

Wed Jul 17 09:31:23 1996
Subject: 1344 Introductory material on Alchemy

Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 23:03:16 -0600 (MDT)
From: Alan Webber

I also am new and would appreciate a copy of any email you might have
sent to Bob on introductory material.

My email address is : explorer@holly.colostate.edu

Thank you,

Alan

Wed Jul 17 09:31:31 1996
Subject: 1345 Adept?

From: calhhh
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 16:54:47 -0400

At 06:02 PM 07/16/96 John D. O'Brien wrote in reference to
my post: ADEPT ?

>> It is clear now that in our days we are seeing a great surge
>> of interest about the ROYAL ART, and I think that together with
>> its study, it is important to divest alchemy of all the
>> superstitions and misconceptions that for one reason or other
>> have accompanied it through the last centuries ...
>> ORCIS
>> calhhh@mail.pananet.com

> I disagree; For exactly the reason that you state in the first part of
> your sentence above, the arcana of Alchemy needs to remain.
> John D. O'Brien

I do not understand quite clearly with what you are disagreeing about,
since my post did not refer to the necessity of keeping alchemical
knowledge, materials and/or procedures secret (arcana), but it was a
simple question to know other members views about what ADEPTHOOD
comprises ...

To learn a little about what the Moon is composed of, does not show you
how to make it, or even less how to get there ... I respect highly anyone's
position in favour of, or against, the need for secrecy about the Royal Art,
but let us not, with all due respect, become a little paranoic, about it.
I also respect very highly the wisdom of the ages, precisely because alchemy
teaches us the necessity to view Nature from a Science/Conscience point of
reference (head on heaven and feet on earth ...), but no one can deny that
also many of the authors, perhaps with the exception of the Adepts at the
end of their path, had a lot of misconceptions as many of us, and specially
myself, may have. That is precisely what I meant by "divesting alchemy of
superstition and misconceptions", since it would never cross my mind to
deny the tremendous value and profound meaning of true alchemical knowledge.

It is because of the above that I feel this forum is a useful tool, so that
we may discuss those matters that without hurting no one, may serve to
clarify ideas, or at least to be a meeting of the minds, and hopefully also
of the hearts of all Seekers of Truths.

Best Regards,

ORCIS
calhhh@mail.pananet.com

Wed Jul 17 09:31:39 1996
Subject: 1346 Adept?

From: John Chas Webb
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 12:23:39 -1000

Response to Orcis's post#1331
Who wrote (edited):
| Does an Adept, once the STONE is accomplished necessarily know
| or understand All the laws of Nature ? Upon ingesting The Stone,
| does he attains automatically some kind of illumination ?
|
| Does the Alchemist to become properly and ADEPT must ingest
| THE STONE .... Does that produces a trascendent change in his
| physical/subtle bodies ?
*******************************************************************
The response to your inquiry is both simple and profound. Support for my
answer comes from the symbolism of "The Last Supper" as described in the
New Testament. (Book Store Ad- "New Testament at Old Testament prices").

"Illumination" has infinite degrees, however, one of the most basic
definitions of "illumination" is "to be aware of the soul". In esoteric
Christianity the soul is represented by the Christ, which to the Alchemist
is "gold". The Christ (soul/gold) in the human condition is found
crucified upon a cross which is a symbol of matter. This crucified
condition, to the Alchemist, is represented by the gold being concealed in
lead. This, in turn, represents, a precious lighter metal contained within
the depths of a much denser one. This represents the relationship of
spirit to flesh and blood.

This part is actually comical ! The symbolism of The Christ consuming
the bread and wine (symbols of flesh and blood) is the PERFECT DEPICTION OF
THE GREAT WORK !!! It represents how the emerging spirit/soul/gold must
devour the flesh and blood to attain liberation. In Alchemical terms this
IS the process of "ingesting the stone". Before this work can begin one
must find one's soul! So, for the Alchemist to proceed he or she must
first locate the soul and in locating the soul he or shee then realizes
that the STONE (weight) is what he or she has referred to as "myself"!

As the work of ingesting the stone proceeds the "gold" is refined and the
"illumination" expands with every "bite". The next MAJOR crossover point
is where the Alchemist ceases identifying with "flesh and blood" and begins
identifying with the spirit/soul/gold.

Some definition of terms is helpful here:
Spirit is without form.
Soul is the INDIVIDUAL EXPRESSION of spirit as a form. (spirit and form
combined) This is represented in the religious symbolism of the Star of
David, the Yin Yang symbol and also as an additional interpretation of the
Cross as the intersection of opposites.
A "form" can be a dense form (lead) or an etheric form (gold).

If one is motivated by "beasty" notions then they take on a beasty form.
If one is motivated by etheric notions they evolve to an etheric form.
This does NOT represent reward or punishment. It represents the Creative
Power's willingness to provide you with a form so that you can have your
desired experience. The "problem" is when the consciousness "forgets it
has a spiritual foundation" and begins to identify itself with its form !
This dilemma is what Alchemy and Metaphysics and Religion are designed to
correct.
The major obstacle in accomplishing The Great Work is the mind which is
represented by Mercury (quicksilver). It takes the "shape" of whatever
container (form) it is placed into. So if we have allowed ourselves to
become ruled by our form and our mind we MUST reverse this condition. The
key is finding the STONE. The Cosmic "slight of hand" involved in this
process is that you cannot find the stone by looking for it !!! You find
the stone by first finding your soul and in the same instant that you find
the SOUL you realize what the STONE is. This process is tantamount to
"splitting the ADAM" !!!

May the golden light flood your mind and heart,
John Charles Webb
johnboy@aloha.net

Wed Jul 17 09:31:52 1996
Subject: 1347 Reviews, Critiques, Opinions

Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 15:19:55 -0700
From: John Williams

>more experienced people, and more importantly, WHY. (For example, has
>anyone read Hermes Unveiled by Roy Norville? - it tied me up in knots, left
>me considering everything, yet doubting everything).
> Still along the same vein, I would also like any opinions on the theory
>that if you are following someone (i.e. Guru, Master, Teacher), then you are
>surely on the wrong path, as we are all different and thus all have to find
>our own individual path.

I'll not claim advancement in the catagory of Alchemy, but for assistance in
your beliefs, I believe myself that a good perspective of life is best
described as. "Doubt Doubt." Or, more fully; "Be skeptical of what you
don't know, then become skeptical of what you do know, then become skeptical
of skepticism." On on a similar vein (I'm not giving the author of this
quote, if you know it, good for you =). )

"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law."

Learning, and I mean really learning, is a cycle of believing and
disbelieving. You believe something until it no longer works, then
disbelieve it and believe something else. You cease to learn when you cease
to disbelieve things which no longer work.

jackal

Wed Jul 17 09:32:03 1996
Subject: 1348 Is alchemy unique?

Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 15:32:16 -0700
From: John Williams

>as I felt it was necessary to catch the implication of the thread. First and
>foremost I have always though that Quantum Theory and Alchemy go hand in
>hand. I do not see in Quantum theory a seperateness of matter and spirit.
>The two are part of an implicate order or spiral. Just recently I was

As a matter of perception (mine) I see in most scientists, of any branch, a
seperating of the matter and spiritual. However, as stated earlier, I have
only recently become involved in linking Alchemy to my interest in Physics,
perhaps I shall come to a new perception. =)

>watching a lecture given by Bohm on Television where division did not come
>into it.I notice you used the `modern' to separate yourself from the old
>concept. I presume you are talking about the work of Dr. Grof which is about
>a decade old. Pesonally I prefer Pibram though. Bohm actually called things,
>as a form to distinguish things, `relatively independent subtotalities'. I
>am no expert in these matters but I would like some more of Quantum theory
>and alchemical imagery to be linked more.

I too would like the link to occur more. I have recently met a fellow who
claims to have discovered the philosophers stone. I've seen some of his
material (research) based on Quantum Physics, Physical Chemistry,
Superconductivity, and other research papers. The possibilities, if what he
is saying is correct, is astounding. Right now, however, I am attempting to
get more information, something more concrete than my opinion.

As far as actual physicists, I'm afraid I don't know any who I prefer, and
I'm familiar with neither Grof or Bohm. Got any sites (www.*) that I could
visit?? =) thanks.

jackal @ qnis.net aka John Williams

Wed Jul 17 09:32:12 1996
Subject: 1349 Is Alchemy Unique?

Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 15:45:09 -0700
From: John Williams

>The only negative for that kind of alchemia that you describe:
>my hypothesis implicates, that spirits (and any kinds of mental activities)
>will not survive the decline and death of body!

True, based on that theory, you cease to exist when your body does.
However, following a corrolary to the theory of information systems (or
whatever you want to call it), if information is all you are, then you NEVER
DIE. Oh, your body ceases to function but:

Every part of you that exists now continues to exists, it merely transforms.
Your matter (i.e., atoms or quanta) continue in a transformed state.
Further, as long as you become part of the world, and invest in it your
ideas and beliefs, those who's lives you have touched carry both your
memory, and your beliefs forward.

At least part of you continues to exist. Perhaps in that rememberance, some
kind of spirit still exists. Just a theory.

jackal @ qnis.net aka John Williams

Wed Jul 17 09:32:22 1996
Subject: 1350 Adept?

Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 15:51:12 -0700
From:John Williams

>> its study, it is important to divest alchemy of all the
>> superstitions and misconceptions that for one reason or other
>> have accompanied it through the last centuries ... >ORCIS
>> calhhh@mail.pananet.com
>
>I disagree; For exactly the reason that you state in the first part of
>your sentence above, the arcana of Alchemy needs to remain.

I agree with the second opinion. Alchemy, being the unification of a
diverse element (or diverse state) _requires_ the continuation of the
superstitions and misconceptions.

In time, I believe old superstitions and misconceptions will be replaced by
new ones , but they will always exist, in one form or another. To
relate to an earlier commentary on relating Alchemy to the location and
movement of the planets:

If Earth is situated between Venus and Mars (the circle being spirit, the
cross being matter, the arrow being divergence), and one path leads to the
Sun (Gold) and the other towards Saturn (Lead), in order to change the
nature of Earth (bring it closer to the philosophers stone [gold]) one would
have to move the Earth through Venus (the Spirit made matter, and the matter
made spirit) into the Sun (Gold).

On just a grammatical level, that would mean the destruction of the Earth as
we know it. Of course, all that matter consumed by the Sun would have a
tremendous transformational effect, and all our matter would continue to
exist, just in a perhaps "higher" state. Forgive the play on words. =)

jackal @ qnis.net aka John Williams