Alchemy Forum 0101-0150

From January 25th 1996, the Alchemy forum was restructured and the messages were sequentially numbered. This is an unedited extract of messages 101-150.
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Thu Feb 01 09:15:07 1996
Subject: 0101 Aurum potabile

Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 22:21:19 -0800
From: William A. Stehl


>Date: Wed, 31 Jan 96 09:04:56 CST
>From: hill@ra.timeplex.com (dan hill ON RA SERVER)
>
>
>I tried some of the potable gold at Hanz N`s House a few years ago.
>It had almost a sparkling feel on my tongue. Does anyone know what
>is actually in the liquid and is it safe? All I had was a few drops
>under the tongue but I felt brave that day.
>
>
>LVX

We are in the process of making some of this material as we speak, if you
like, I will keep you advised on progress, please advise...

Bill

"great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds"
A. Einstein


Thu Feb 01 09:16:37 1996
Subject: 0102 Alchemy and Electricity

Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 09:23:11 +0100
From: Van den Bossche Peter


Do any of you know about alchemical interpretations of Electricity?
Although the classical books predate the electric age, I found an
interesting statement in Fulcanelli (Demeures), which I quote (in French;
accents omitted). It states the relationship between electricity, metals
and fire.

Le fluide electrique, silencieux, obscur et froid, parcourt son conducteur
metallique sans l'influencer autrement ni manifester son passage. Mais,
vient-il a rencontrer une resistance, l'energie se revele aussitot avec les
qualites et sous l'aspect du feu. Un filament de lampe devient
incandescent, le charbon de cornue s'embrase, le fil metallique le plus
refractaire fond sur-le-champ. Or, l'electricite n'est-elle pas un feu
veritable, un feu en puissance? D'ou tire-t-elle son origine, sinon de la
decomposition (batteries) ou la desagregation (dynamos) des metaux, corps
eminemment charges du principe igne?

Are any further references known?

Peter


Thu Feb 01 09:22:14 1996
Subject: 0103 Aurum Potabile

Date: Thu, 01 Feb 1996 01:26:00 -0500
From: Russ House

>Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 09:36:38 -0800
>From: joshua geller
>
>
>Alchemy forum writes:
> > Charlie Richards writes
>
> > >Another way that I developed, is to take water, sulpheric acid, urea,
> > >thiourea, ferric oxide and gold. This is safe enough to do in the palm
> > >of your hand...the gold will dance like a fizzie until disolved. The
> > >ph changes as the gold is disolved. If you have the ingreadents
> > >proper...you can drink it. It does taste like crap, but it is liquid
> > >gold.
>
> > This is absolute nonsense. Pure fantasy. The alchemists discovered that
> > only aqua regia (a mixture of nitric and hydrochloric acids) will
> > dissolve gold.
>
>well, technically, gold will dissolve in mercury. it is not (of
>course) chemically changed by this and is easily recovered (by as
>simple a method as sieving through chamois or by more dangerous
>methods as heating the mix to drive away the mercury). some of the
>literature seems to imply that "our mercury" or some other thing
>referred to as mercury is mercury treated in some fashion in with
>antimony.
>
> > To make such a statement as the above, is either to play silly games or is
> > the result of a complete misunderstanding of the properties of substances in
> > alchemy. Can anyone believe that you have actually done any practical
> > alchemical work?
>
>I am very glad that someone else besides me has seen this.
>
>josh
>
I have seen gold leaf of 23K dissolve (although slowly) in something other
than aqua regia.

I have used heated aqua regia on .9999 pure gold and on gold nuggets, and
suggest that it be done on a fume hood or outdoors. The fumes are horrible,
and dangerous. I remember holding a filter paper over the fumes for a brief
time. After removing it from the fumes it was brittle and disintegrated at
the least touch. This is mentioned just in case some one looks into working
with metallic gold and is unaware of how dangerous this acid can be.

But, back to the 'non traditional' menstruum. It was a rectified distillate
of lead acetate. Ripley (in the Bosom Book, on Adam's web site), Hollandus,
Edward Kelly, Becker, and many other alchemists mention this rather clearly
in the literature.

It was made from commercial red lead oxide that had been converted in part
to lead acetate and subacetate which was then recrystallized half a dozen or
more times to purify it.

This was dry distilled, as previously described in posts by Dan Hill and
Michael Prescott. The 'golden water' that came over was rectified a number
of times.

I have done this process quite a few times, and have kept samples from the
different processes, done with slightly different sources materials or
manipulated a bit differently. One specific batch of the rectified
distillate was able to dissolve 23K gold leaf at room temperature over a
period of 4-6 weeks. After several days, examination of the gold in the
water-clear liquid revealed tiny green or blue spots which are an effect of
light passing through gold of only a few atoms of thickness. Over time, the
number of holes increased, and the blue or green was to be seen at the edge
of the hole. After 6 weeks or more, pieces of colorless 'skin' were
observed in the liquid. These were gold leaf with no color. It makes sense
that a menstruum will more readily extract the metallic 'sulphurs' than it
will dissolve the 'salts'. It is my assumption (rather than observation)
that the salts were attacked, although more slowly. This never progressed
to the point that all of the gold became invisible, although the greater
part of it did.

Other batches of similar product, including ones more rectified, and ones
that were circulated, had no effect on gold leaf that I could observe. I
have met other experimenters who say that the volatile spirit of Saturn (the
lead acetate distillate) has no effect on metallic gold. I can say that the
majority of the product I have made has no effect on metallic gold, but that
I have found it to work in one case that I have tested to date.

The solvent evaporates quickly from the skin, is flammable in the extreme,
contains acetaldehyde, acetone, traces of acetic acid and similar products.
It is, in other words, a mixture. It is not corrosive (like aqua regia, for
example).

Regarding Charlie's comments about his process "Another way that I
developed, is to take water, sulpheric acid, urea, thiourea, ferric oxide
and gold." This is an interesting idea. Should it work? Not according to
chemistry books, of course. What I did find of interest is the urea. In
some of the old alchemical texts, the preparation of solvents for gold using
urine as the prima materia are numerous. I have not worked along those
lines, but there is a strong traditional background that suggests that
Charlie's ideas are work a second look.

There are some other processes for dissolving gold, including some iodine,
potassium iodide solutions that I have experimented with just in passing. I
cannot say that there is any thing to these processes, or that there is not.

In regards to a question on what is in the potabile gold of Hans N...
I was with Hans when he was taught the process that I assume he used. It
involves creating a chloride of gold, dissolving it and digesting it in the
lead spirit that I mentioned earlier, followed by a _very_ important series
of washes in various solvents to remove all traces of acid. This is
difficult, risks burning the metallic oils of gold, but is absolutely
necessary to have any assurance of removing the metallic salts. There must
be no acidity in the product before further preparation. Futher washes of
the concentrated oil in absolute alcohol, foolwed by washing/concentration
in acetone, and then in ether are important to make it possible for the
metallic sulphurs to migrate into the increasingly rarified solvents without
the metallic salts (toxic) following along. The resulting oil is ruby red
and behaves like an oil. It is dissolved in rectified spirit of wine.

It has been said that refining of metals 'kills' them, and drives out their
life. I think that this is _relatively_ true. Nothing is dead. Something
of a confirmation for this idea came when I used placer gold nuggets, as the
basic material, and separated it from most of the silver and other metals
using aqua regia and other means known to chemists and assayers and found in
the normal books. The yield of oil from 1 oz of gold nuggets astounded me.
I had, in my first experiments, used a .9999 pure Candadian Maple leaf coin.
((Not an ounce one, mind you)).
The yield was an estimated 5-6 times higher using the ore vs the coin,
looking at the weight of the final yield compared to the weight of the gold
used.

This is a fun, if expensive process, and demands a lot of time. Lots of it.
It has some risks for folks who forget a thing or two, or rush or work
beyond the time that their body and mind need rest. ((Who? Me?))

The material that Hans prepared was, I assume, colorless. It was, I
suggest, a 4C, 5C or 6C homeopathic dilution of the mother tincture of oil
of gold. Just one drop of oil to 100, or even 1000 drops of alcohol gives a
really strong color. It is said to be allopathically active even in
picomolar (or some 50 dollar word like that) dosages. We were taught the
process of dilutions to avoid risk of toxicity.

All things considered, it is interesting. It may be dangerous, or maybe a
blessing. I cannot say. I do not know if it is even an aurum potabile. It
will be toxic if prepared badly, since gold chloride or other metallic
compounds can manage to be dissolved in the acids and remain in the final
product. Don't look for the fountain of youth and end up floating face down
in it. I am certain that a good spagyrist could prepare something much
safer, with effects that are very beneficial, and which may exceed the
preparation I have just described.

Now if I could just get suficient salts to imbibe with all of this red
sulphur...

Regards,

Russ House

====================================
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The Philosophers of Nature on the web:
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"Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana" - Groucho Marx


Thu Feb 01 09:24:19 1996
Subject: 0104 Aurum Potabile

Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 00:37:24 -0800
From: William A. Stehl

>Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 09:36:38 -0800
>From: joshua geller
>
>
>Alchemy forum writes:
> > Charlie Richards writes
>
> > >Another way that I developed, is to take water, sulpheric acid, urea,
> > >thiourea, ferric oxide and gold. This is safe enough to do in the palm
> > >of your hand...the gold will dance like a fizzie until disolved. The
> > >ph changes as the gold is disolved. If you have the ingreadents
> > >proper...you can drink it. It does taste like crap, but it is liquid
> > >gold.
>
> > This is absolute nonsense. Pure fantasy. The alchemists discovered that
> > only aqua regia (a mixture of nitric and hydrochloric acids) will
> > dissolve gold.
>
>well, technically, gold will dissolve in mercury. it is not (of
>course) chemically changed by this and is easily recovered (by as
>simple a method as sieving through chamois or by more dangerous
>methods as heating the mix to drive away the mercury). some of the
>literature seems to imply that "our mercury" or some other thing
>referred to as mercury is mercury treated in some fashion in with
>antimony.
>
> > To make such a statement as the above, is either to play silly games or is
> > the result of a complete misunderstanding of the properties of substances in
> > alchemy. Can anyone believe that you have actually done any practical
> > alchemical work?
>
>I am very glad that someone else besides me has seen this.
>
>josh

a) Gold is amalgamated by mercury, partially dissolved, partially alloyed
b) Gold is dissolved by thiourea, ferric oxide, etc. - a significant
percentage of the world's gold production is obtained in this matter, not
recommended in the palm of the hand, however
c) Gold is indeed dissolved by aqua regia, also by "aqua nasty" in which a
portion to the HCl is replaced by HF - this process produces complex halide
salts of gold
d) Gold is dissolved by cyanide, eight million ounces worth in Nevada alone
this year
e) Gold is dissolved by bromine leaching systems, not economical, but works
in some cases
f) there are several other well documented methods of dissolving gold, some
of which could produce a "potabile " version of one or more gold salts if
used in very low concentrations
g) It is theorized that gold can be dissolved by the combination of acid
and enzymes in the stomach, but only as micro-fine particles
h) and then there is the whole "mono-atomic" non-metallic gold debate
surrounding David Hudson, which appears to be gaining momentum

these are easily confirmed by experiment or study, see "The Metallurgy of
Gold" by Hoke etc.

Bill

"great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds"
A. Einstein


Thu Feb 01 10:00:35 1996
Subject: 0105 Aurum potabile

Date: Tue, 30 Jan 96 17:51 NZDT
From: zirdo@ramhb.co.nz (Pat Zalewski)


>Date: Sun, 28 Jan 96 17:48 PST
>From: clpress@yelmtel.com (John Hill)
>
>
>Does anyone know a reference that describes the method of making 'Aurum
>Potible'? Or does anyone have a recipe?
>
>
>Yes there are quite a few of them around. One version is that you actually
mix gold filings into the experiment and the other method is that you
extract it from primea materia (making sure it has gold in it in the first
place). John French's `Art of Distillation has some information worth
looking up. The real trick is the use of the elixir when you have finished.
I would not take it willy nilly, as in the past some have done that and
ended up with more problems than they needed. In spite of what a lot of
people think potable gold is not a cure all. I saw a chinese version once
in Hong Kong, back in the 60's and the man was trying to be cured of a type
of veneral disease that eventually proved fatal to him. His friend also took
it and removed a nasty parasite that had plagued him when in Nam. When he
returned back to the states he was tested again and found cured and sent
back to nam. He had taken the potable gold for about a week. The method of
making it was never made clear to me but the man assured me he extracted the
gold from both soil and plants. God knows what type of soil or plant he used
as I could not understand a word of what he was getting at. The only gold I
use these days for patients is placing a gold object in distilled water and
leaving it in the sun for an our or more. I have had some good results with
this for various aliments both mental and physical.

Pat zalewski


Thu Feb 01 11:28:44 1996
Subject: 0106 Aurum potabile

With all the interesting contributions recently on the 'Aurum potabile' I wonder if anyone has done any experiments with colloidal gold.
Some years ago someone gave me a small ampule of gold chloride and I was able to make some gold mirrors by precipitating the gold from solutions using dilute glucose. I can't now exactly remember the exact methodology. Can anyone refesh my memory on this?
Can anyone point to any alchemical texts which seem to refer to the deposition of gold mirrors?
Colloidal gold can be made to exhibit a variety of colours. Has anyone done any experiments exploiting these colour changes?

Adam McLean


Thu Feb 01 12:09:32 1996
Subject: 0107 FRENCH texte alch

Date: Thu, 01 Feb 1996 12:56:34 +0100
From: Christian Vanden Berghen


Bonjour Thierry,

Heureux de rencontrer un francophone ! Malheureusement, je n'ai jamais
trouve ce que tu cherches. Et si tu le trouves, je suis amateur.
Par contre, je m'occupe d'une petite association qui s'interesse a la
Tradition et plus specialement a l'Alchimie. Nous avons quelques livres
dont je me propose de publier la liste un de ces jours.
Bien a toi
Christian


At 18:24 31/01/1996 GMT+0100, you wrote:
>From: ducreux thierry
>Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 12:51:51 +0100
>
>Existe t il un serveur sur lequel figure des textes alchimiques.
>Je pense precisement ` :
> - DUJOLS
> - BASILE VALENTIN
>Merci,
>Thierry.
>
>
>
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Christian VANDEN BERGHEN
Rota Solis asbl
Brussels/Belgium
christian.vanden.berghen@netropolis.be
ChristianVandenBerghen@msn.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


Thu Feb 01 17:34:34 1996
Subject: 0108 re-creation

Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 07:32:22 -0500
From: kcrist

rock building 101 anybody?

will charlie teach us?

kirk
--------


Thu Feb 01 17:35:24 1996
Subject: 0109 Rosarium philosophorum

Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 07:21:41 -0800 (PST)
From: "Charla J. Williams"

A friend works with a different order of elements for 12 different arts,
including alchemy, astrology, and tarot. He said he read about this in an
old German Rosicrucian Book. Does this sound familiar to anyone?

Thank you, Charla


Thu Feb 01 17:36:23 1996
Subject: 0110 Taschen Alchemy Book

Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 09:22:47 -0600
From: George Randall Leake III


***there's some obvious mis-spellings in this bibliographic citation. Mark,
can you re-check this? If alchemy is mis-spelled, how can we trust that
ISBN # for instance?

>Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 20:23:41 +0000
>From: Mark Bennett
>Alechemy & Mysticism- Hermetic Museum
>Alexandder Roob
>ISBN 3-8228-8653-X
>704pp
>c 700 ills
>Fall 96
>
>The quality of Taschen is very high and the colour reproduction in just
>there catalogue is supurb. They will also be doing a postcard book at the
>same time.
>
>Taschen UK (0171) 437 4350
>Taschen America (212) 683 3377
>
>Mark Bennett
>Editor/Publisher - Black Ice Magazine
>Executive Producer - Perspectives
>
>
>
> Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.--Frank Zappa

-G.Leake, 512-471-9117 taliesin@mail.utexas.edu

"To be ignorant of what occurred before you were born is to remain always a
child."
-Cicero
"Oh age! oh letters! It is a joy to be alive!...Woe to you, barbarians!"
-Ulrich von Hutten, 1518, Poet Laureate of the German Empire


Thu Feb 01 17:37:03 1996
Subject: 0111 Rosicrucians?

Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 09:26:46 -0600
From: George Randall Leake III


>From: John E. Myers> myersj@gactr.uga.edu
>Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 9:11:50 EST5EDT
>I consider the original Rosicrucians to have been Alchemists.

***I don't mean to raise hell, but maybe it would be better for all of us
if you could find some way to qualify such statements, such as... actual
evidence? And then from there perhaps we could discuss it? Then get into
what they have to do with alchemy?

-G.Leake, 512-471-9117 taliesin@mail.utexas.edu

"To be ignorant of what occurred before you were born is to remain always a
child."
-Cicero
"Oh age! oh letters! It is a joy to be alive!...Woe to you, barbarians!"
-Ulrich von Hutten, 1518, Poet Laureate of the German Empire


Thu Feb 01 17:38:13 1996
Subject: 0112 Locating the prima materia (3)

Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 11:59:28 -0500
From: Flamel

This post is a continuation of one of the central ideas in alchemy, that of
the nature of the prima materia. It is somewhat lengthy, and I realize, a
burden on the reader, for which I apologize. It requires a great deal of
supportive explanation to unpack the symbolism condensed in alchemical ideas
and images in order to make their meanings available for our modern
understanding. I want to thank the many individuals who responded to my
previous posts, both privately and on the forum, and who have added their own
thoughts and reflections to this rich body of material. As in the past, I
welcome your additions, corrections, and further reflections.

Maury

Jan 31, 1996

*

On January 19, 1996, Patrick J. Smith wrote when elaborating Fulcanelli's
vision of the prima materia:

>>It's my understanding that the cross hatched pattern [first
matter=ankh=sign of the cross=universal life hidden in matter] implies a
Hermetically Sealed Vessel, symbolically equivalent to Fixation of the
Mercury (i.e., the formation of the First Stone), and often depicted by the
killing of a snake or serpent.<<

These remarks can be supported by some further speculations on the nature of
the prima materia by the alchemists of the Middle Ages. In a separate post
I'll try to address the origins of the idea of the connection between the
"cross hatched pattern" and the "Vessel," a basic image in the theoria of
alchemy.

The idea of the prima materia as a "serpent" is a very important concept in
alchemy. This very interesting idea has its roots in antiquity. One example
in alchemy, as cited above, is when the snake personifies the "mercurial
serpent." This is also an ancient Gnostic image for the Nous - the mind -
where the spirit was represented as a serpent, the Agathodaimon, the good
daimon, or it was referred to as the serpent of the Nous. This serpent does
_not_ represent "reason" or anything like it, rather it represents a peculiar
autonomous mind which can possess one completely, a spirit of revelation
which gives us "intuitions" [_Einfalle_]. Paracelsus suggested this when he
says that the function of this mind is to throw out "intuitions." It is a
concealed mind, and for this reason, it is symbolized by the serpent, a
reptile which conceals itself. Such a formulation suggests an autonomous
being, something quite outside ourselves - the mind which throws out these
"intuitions" cannot be identified with man, it is no human function, but
something inhuman, totally indifferent to man, as objective as a real snake.

After long hours of observation and meditation, many alchemists discovered
that all the "intuitions" which came to them from this region were, in some
strange way, inhuman; their character was not of a human nature. This
contradicts our cherished ideas of mind and reason. We are largely convinced
that our psychology is a purely personal matter, but, according to the
imagery of alchemy, psychology is _not_ only that which we know about
ourselves, it goes far beyond this into the unconscious. Apparently we
cannot dispose of the unconscious, it , rather disposes of us; and it is from
this region that these "intuitions" come. The natural philosophers were more
introspective than we are, and they worked at the art of introspection,
which, by in large, we cannot say for ourselves, and therefore they knew that
the mind, from which these ideas come, is something of a totally different
nature to our human reason, and the best description they could find for it
was a snake-like being - a serpent, or a monster, or a winged dragon - it is
really indescribable, something beyond human experience. Throughout much of
the alchemical literature, esp. in Arabic alchemy, we find images of serpents
and dragons in every kind of form. It is from the total strangeness of the
psychical being that the really decisive "intuitions" come.

Indeed, from the Gnostics, the serpent has been the symbol for the brain and
its appendages, i.e., the brain's lower centers, and the spinal cord, partly
on account of its shape, but also for introspective reasons. One has an
inner feeling that the way the snake moves, and the character of its body, is
like the psychical mind. The ancient saurians actually had a swelling in the
lumbar vertebrae which was larger than the "brain," and if they had a brain
at all it must have been located in the lumbar region. This shows us how
important the spinal cord is, it is a pure system of reflexes, reaching up to
the highest and most complicated instincts. The reflexes function through
the collaboration of the spinal cord and the basal ganglia. All this was
symbolized by the serpent, and this gives us a further hint as to the source
of the "intuitions." It demonstrates that they come from a region which lies
in the subcortical centers; that is, from the instinctive and reflexive
psyche. This reaches into the sympathetic nervous system, of which the chief
part is the two ganglionated cords which lie on each side of the spine, a
sort of rope ladder system which extends into the innermost organs of the
body. The sympathetic system has a peculiar connection with the
cerebro-spinal system, it works with it but it is older, in that it is to be
found in the lowest invertebrate animals which have no backbone and no
cerebro-spinal nervous system. The "sympathetic" system rules the vegetative
functions of the body, and also, to a great extent, the circulation of the
blood, and is connected with the emotions. The connection with the
cerebro-spinal nervous system gives a highly unusual physiological foundation
to the unconscious. One could say, in a certain sense, that the unconscious
was the invisible, psychical part of the tangible and visible nervous system,
just as one might say consciousness was the invisible prt of the brain. This
does not mean that the whole psychical phenomenon is a secretion of the brain
or of the basal ganglia, or anything of that kind; the whole thing is far
more complicated, and lies, through its very nature, on the borders of human
understanding. Living matter is a mystery which is beyond our understanding,
if only for the reason that we ourselves consist of living matter. We cannot
climb above our own heads, a fact that should be a warning to all those who
try to explain the nature of any transcendent reality.

The fact that the mysterious being represented by the serpent is so much
connected with the material body, was the reason why the definitions or
symbolic formulations for the prima materia were usually purely material, and
very often in the most unpleasant sense of the word. As is well known,
alchemists were often suspected of working with every kind of unappetizing
material, and they did actually work with excrement. Sometimes a parallel
was drawn between the prima materia and excrement, or even that it was to be
found in human faeces, or that it originated in the same way, or could be
found in old privies. In this respect, therefore, it is the cheapest thing,
which is cast out and rejected, and can be found at every street corner.
Petrus of Zalento says the prima materia is a white dove, but that its
origin is of the basest, and that it can be found in stables and in kitchen
waste, but when it is united with the spirit, it becomes "pulcherrima
matrona," the most beautiful lady. This is a typical description, on the one
side it is the lowest, most objectionable and disgusting thing, on the other,
the most beautiful and exalted - and it is often portrayed as a bringing
together of the opposites. Whenever you find symbolism in which the
opposites are brought together, you may be sure that there is a so-called
metaphysical idea behind which can only be expressed by a paradox, or through
a paradoxical formulation, and such an antimony does not belong to pure
reason but comes from the Nous - its a kind of revelation which has been
dropped in, or thrown, by the unconscious.

We can understand then why the prima materia is spoken of as a great and
marvelous mystery. This mystery is somehow connected with nature or lies in
nature, and man's reason is absolutely helpless when confronted with this
mystery, he is unable to deal with it alone. It is essential therefore that
nature herself should help him, apart from God, whose help is also essential.

Finally, here is an unusual example of a thoroughly philosophical formulation
from an old alchemical treatise, the so-called "Treatise of Aristotle," which
was probably originally Arabic, and goes back to Alexandrian ideas. The
tract is written as a letter from Aristotle to Alexander, his student.
Aristotle, of course, is a pseudonym used to give added weight to the text.
The treatise says:

"The serpent... as a quasi hypostasized matter forms itself, through
illusion, as immersed in the water."

This is a difficult sentence to understand. It means: the serpent is the
hypostatic, underlying materia (the essence of matter), which sinks into the
water, or is as it were in the water, and, through illusion, it deceives the
senses. The sentence appears to indicate that this serpent was enclosed in
fluid matter, that is, in the water or the solution which the alchemists had
in their flasks or retorts. In an earlier discussion on *meditatio* on this
forum, I described how the alchemists naturally stared with utmost curiosity
at their flasks and cooking vessels and saw the strangest things in them.
They describe seeing numbers of snakes or other reptiles, some saw human
figures, others say that they saw the creation of the world, the dry being
separated from the waters, the clouds rising from the sea, and the mountains
rearing its head above the primeval waters. All these images were
projections of inner processes which the alchemists saw in their retorts, and
it is to this that pseudo-Aristotle refers.

In the "Liber Platonis Quartorum" an alchemist writes that it is
characteristic of the prima materia "to seek the higher and strive to
separate itself from the lower." Evidently it has in itself the power of
ascending, and apparently one need only put it in a retort in order to give
it back its natural trend. It is imprisoned in matter and, if freed, it
ascends at once. But, the author adds: "one must be careful to protect
oneself from its evil intention," for this substance was also known to be
dangerous and evil. It was said to contain demons and other dangerous
forces, which, in an invisible way, could have a poisonous effect [cf. one of
the names of the prima materia was "Adam's earth," which Maier tells us that
Adam carried this earth away with him from Paradise. An old legend says that
Adam, when driven out of Paradise, carried some of its soil away with him.
This earth was said to be red, and "terra rubra," red earth, is also a name
for the prima materia. The idea is that primeval man possessed a substance,
a sort of earth, out of which Paradise could grow, and Adam carries the
secret of this earth in himself. Of course, the serpent belongs to Paradise
and many alchemists liked to play with this idea].

In the same tract, the "Liber Platonis Quartorum" says:

"The thing from which all things come, is the invisible and immovable God."

This thing, the first thing from which everything originated, is the prima
materia, and in a way it is the visibility and changeableness of a God who is
in himself invisible and unchangeable. The idea of an immovable God goes
back to the real Aristotle. This treatise probably reaches back through the
Ssabians, a philosophic school which flourished in Bagdad until the eleventh
century, to the ideas of the old Alexandrian philosophers.

I find these ideas on the nature of the alchemical prima materia, organized
around the image of the serpent, so wonderfully rich when fleshed out. They
lend a deeper meaning to our humanity, a meaning that often gets lost in
today's technological world.


Thu Feb 01 17:42:14 1996
Subject: 0113 Alchemy resources in Germany?

From: "Matthias Zeiner"
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 96 17:05:07 +0700

Being located in Germany I have problems in getting alchemical literature.
Even classical works like those from Maier, Khunrath, Sendivog, Valentine
and others, many of which were originally published in Germany, are not
available by publishers or bookstores here. So I have to purchase English
or French editions from abroad.
Are there any possibilities to get German editions for a reasonable price?
Any information is greatly appreciated.

Matthias Zeiner


Thu Feb 01 18:31:21 1996
Subject: 0114 Booklet on alchemy

The Thomas Harriot Seminar publishes a series of papers (19 to date).
One may be of interest to some members of the forum.

No. 10. Lyndy Abraham. Harriot's Gift to Arthur Dee: Literary Images from an Alchemical Manuscript.


The Seminar Papers are available for 3.00 including postage - cheques made out to Professor G.R. Batho. [People outside the UK should perhaps write first to find the cost to foreign postage and exchange rate.]

Professor G.R. Batho,
School of Education - Universtity of Durham,
Leazes Road,
Durham,
DH1 1TA
U.K.





Adam McLean



Thu Feb 01 20:57:22 1996
Subject: 0115 Questions for YOU ...

Date: Thu, 1 Feb 96 17:36:41 PST
From: A.J.Le Sage


Could it be true that the illigitimate child of Alchemy
was the Church of Rome. If the rose is a symbol of
spirit and the cross a symbol of matter then is the rose
on the cross is spirit joined with matter, the physical
goal of the Alchemest.

---------------Original Message---------------
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 16:15:01 -0500 (EST)
From: Claude Gagnon

On Mon, 29 Jan 1996, Alchemy forum wrote:

> Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 09:15:04 -0600
> From: taliesin@mail.utexas.edu (George Randall Leake III)
>
> >Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 10:06:00 -0700 (MST)
> >From: Tom Hennessy
> >
> >The whole thing with alchemy and the Bible is that they don't seem to
> >come together except by spirituality.
> >I cannot find any mention of 'alchemy'.. in the Bible.
> >He was a bit interested in 'transmutation'.. though. :)
> ***
> *Might some of his miracles like multiplying bread be considered in the
> realm of alchemy?
>
> *But as you suggest, the metaphor of transmutation is not too far off from
> Christian redemption (except one must accept Jesus specifically, and/or go
> to his church, get baptized, depending on yr sect).
>
> *One wonders whether the spiritual context of alchemy and Christianity
> might have had some common root or shared heritage in the ancient world?
>
> -G.Leake, 512-471-9117 taliesin@mail.utexas.edu


Thu Feb 01 20:58:47 1996
Subject: 0116 Rosicrucians?

Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 10:20:38 -0800
From: Michael D. Miller

> Tom wrote
>
> >I have in my possession a Rosy Manual .. and I wish to know
> >.. WHAT .. feelings anyone has on the subject of 'discussing' its
> >contents in the forum?
>
>
> Do you ask this because the manual is supposedly secret
> or because it is not directly relevant to alchemy?
>
> If the latter, it should probably not be discussed on this forum.
>
> There is a general occult forum, entitle ARCANA.
> send the message subscribe ARCANA (your name) on the second line to
>
>
> I am interested in talking about it,
> but that would seem the most appropriate arena for doing so.

I agree that this is not the forum for discussing Rosicrucianism unless
it is related to alchemy as there were/are rosicrucians who are also
alchemist. I have been a Rosicrucian for many years and worked with
the Imperators of the Rosicrucian AMORC and also the more traditional
Rosicrucian Order which is called the Order of the Golden Rose. So I
would be interested in discussions on this topic, but I agree this is
not the forum for it.

When cryptography is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl."
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/

() () () () () () () () ()
/[]\ /[]\ /[]\ /[]\ /[]\ /[]\ /[]\ /[]\ /[]\
.-##..___.##--..__##.---..##_..---##___..-##..___.##--..__##.---..##_.
.-|//___..|//.___.|//-.___|//--.__|//---._|//.---.|//..---|//_..--|//_
.---.___.---.___.---.___.---.___.---.___.---.___.---.___.---.___.---._
.---.__.---.__.---.__.---.__.---.__.---.__.---.__.---.__.---.__.---.__
.--.__.--.__.--.__.--.__.--.__.--.__.--.__.-- michael.miller@ebay.sun.com
SUN MICROsystems--MIL12-04--2550 GARCIA AVE--MOUNTAIN VIEW CA 94043-1100

Even a fool is thought wise if he is silent, And Discerning if he holds
his tongue. -- Proverbs 17:28


Thu Feb 01 20:57:43 1996
Subject: 0117 Questions for YOU ...

Date: Thu, 1 Feb 96 12:07 PST
From: Diane Munoz


In regards to the conversations on the Bible and Alchemy/Jesus' miracles
etc. Has anyone read "Hermes Unveiled" and/or "The Language of the Gods" by
Roy Norvill? They are really fascinating in that they address the ancient
myths, Bible included, fairy tales etc and view them from a perspective of
Hermetic code. I think Mr. Norvill has come up with some ingenius
understandings of the codes used in the Bible to explain the matter of
enlightenment, transmutation, and the alchemical process of changing the
body to have access and understanding of the finer realms.

Any comments?

Diane


Thu Feb 01 21:04:12 1996
Subject: 0119 re-creation

Date: Thu, 1 Feb 96 12:49 PST
From: Diane Munoz


Charlie, I agree with you in principle on the quote re: the rock. That is
the basis of alchemy, I believe. After all, isn't alchemy just starting
from the most obvious (mass) and undoing and undoing until you get to the
foundation? The "Rock" statement is just the reverse idea and actually more
appropriate if you want to develop the art of creation. That is because
everything has to come FROM nothing. The intelligence that came from the
nothing to form the rock is what all alchemists strive to understand and
become.

diane


Thu Feb 01 21:05:44 1996
Subject: 0118 re-creation

Date: Thu, 1 Feb 96 12:52 PST
From: Diane Munoz


Also, I would like to point out that chaos only appears to be chaos because
you're too close to the subject. There is always a perspective that shows
the order in the chaos when you detach and move far enough away from it to
view the whole picture. Chaos is an indication that you're only viewing a
PART of the picture!

And Nature is not IMPURE, it is in the throes of change, ie evolution. It's
viewed as corrupted only by those (perhaps?) that don't want change and are
afraid of evolution. Perfection is a limitation, you know? One must
continue to expand so that it can attain that perspective to transmute the
vision of chaos into order! :)

Diane


Thu Feb 01 23:02:34 1996
Subject: 0120 Prima Materia

Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 08:16:24 +1100
From: Petra Gottlieb


Maury Flamel, are you still out there?
Did you receive my last post?:-
Dear Maury Flamel,
I am holding on to your silver thread and follow the beautiful idea you have
stun. Oh how revealing! Let's stop here for a moment and observe: the Stone
is melted into its mercury, it is reduced to its original condition. We are
dealing with the prima materia, which simultaneously is the macrocosmic
realm of the souls. Since the soul carries the spirit within, we can speak
of the Philosopher's Egg (the yellow in the white), "the seed of the world
that contains God's seed" as you said, yet still in the chaotic state. How
do we go from here? How can we get this Egg hatched? What outside influence
do we require, or does it happen from within? Let's continue to spin our
web so that when the sun shines on it, it produces all the colours in the
spectrum. Please continue your everlasting story...and tell me if I am on
the wrong track.
With great expectation,

---
Petra Christiane Gottlieb
>>OHNE LIEBE KEINE KUNST!<< (Paracelsus)
WITHOUT LOVE THERE IS NO ART!


Thu Feb 01 23:02:46 1996
Subject: 0121 looking for poem

Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 18:25:55 -0400 (AST)
From: Jeff Burkard Phys Ed

Anyone know the author, title, or web location where I could find
the following poem: (partial)

As I walk beside a joy
A joy of mine I cannot take

And someday by some Alchemy
I will be transposed


Jeff Burkard
Director of Campus Recreation

\_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_\_
\_ \_ \_\_ \_ \_ \_
\_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_\_
\_ \_ \_ \_\_ \_ \_
\_\_\_ \_ \_ \_ \_\_

University of New Brunswick
Fredericton, NB
CANADA


Thu Feb 01 23:03:16 1996
Subject: 0122 FRENCH texte alch

Date: 01 Feb 96 17:20:50 EST
From: Jean Dauge

Je vais vous donner l' adresse de ma page qui est bien modeste pour l' instant.
: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/JDauge/rennes.htm
Choisiez ensuite la rubrique Alchimie.
Sont presents quelques textes curieux.
Mais il n y a pas Dujol ni Basile Valentin.
Dujol: voir explications du Mutus liber , dans la collection Bibliothequa
Hermetiqua .
Amicalement
J.Dauge.


Fri Feb 02 09:15:31 1996
Subject: 0123 Alchemy resources in Germany?

Date: Thu, 01 Feb 1996 16:09:08 -1000
From: Anastasy Tynan


Matthias Zeiner:
>Being located in Germany I have problems in getting alchemical literature.

A valuable resource is the defunct periodical "Quinta Essentia," which can
be found in used book stores. (1976-1980's)

formerly published by:
Paracelsus Research Society
Postfach 8
CH 6414 Oberarth/Schweiz

Redaktion:
Johanna Arnold
Dobereinerstr. 23a
D 8000 Munchen 60


Fri Feb 02 09:15:43 1996
Subject: 0124 Aurum potabile

Date: Thu, 01 Feb 1996 22:03:19 -0500 (EST)
From: hyson@BIX.com

I have joined this Alchemy list to search information on the
"White Powder of Gold" of Dave Hudson.
I am new to this. What can you tell me about this.

Is it similar or related to the "potible gold"?

Thanks
Michael T. Hyson


Fri Feb 02 09:31:18 1996
Subject: 0125 Aurum potabile (Hudson again?)

Michael T. Hyson (hyson@bix.com) wrote:

>I have joined this Alchemy list to search information on the
>"White Powder of Gold" of Dave Hudson.
>I am new to this. What can you tell me about this.

The forum discussed questions arising from Dave Hudson at considerable length during the last few months of 1995. There must have been about 100 posts. Most of the subscribers probably believe we exhausted the subject then, and would not want just to repeat airing all the different views again. Of course, if new information comes to light about Hudson, no doubt someone will raise it on the forum, but the forum members certainly analysed the information available then in considerable detail.

When I have time I will archive the forum discussions on Hudson and place them onto the Alchemy Web site. Check this out in a few weeks time. There is an earlier thread of discussions of Hudson already on the Web site.

http://www/colloquium.co.uk/alchemy/


Adam McLean


P.S. Perhaps one of the forum members with an especial interest in Hudson, might care to send some information direct to Michael Hyson, rather than posting it through the forum.


Fri Feb 02 10:46:40 1996
Subject: 0126 Missing posts on the forum

Since I began sequentially numbering the posts to the forum on the 25th January 1996, it is now possible for people to see when mail has gone missing.

I have received a number of letters about missing mail, and have asked my service provider Colloquium to look into it. There are a number of unposted messages stuck in the mail queue of the listserver, and the people at Colloquium don't entirely understand why these posts have become stuck, nor, as yet, just what to do to remedy the situation.

It may well be that the listserver on Colloquium's system is just not able to handle the volume of mail originated by the forum, or it may be connected with undeliverable mail returned from people whose servers are down, halting the posting out of mail from the listserver.

Please be patient about lost mail. I have no control over this problem, but I will struggle to find a solution as soon as possible.


With my best wishes,


Adam McLean.


Fri Feb 02 11:54:58 1996
Subject: 0127 Help with alchemy forum listserver!

There are a number of problems with the alchemy forum listserver which mails out the posts for the alchemy forum. The people at Colloquium who provide this service don't seem to be able to solve the problems, so I must explore my options for the future.

I wonder if it might be possible to relocate the listserver onto another site, preferably on the US academic network where mail transfer seems to be relatively fast, but I could consider other sites if they can cope with the traffic.

If anyone on the forum has sufficient seniority in their academic institution to request the setting up of a listserver for the alchemy forum on their network, please get in touch. You wouldn't need to do anything after negotiating the initial setting up, as I can run everything from here.

Such a listserver would have to be able to handle at least 20 messages a day posted out to 240+ people (i.e. 5000 E-mails a day). The total size of all messages can be as much as 60k a day, sent out to 240 people (i.e. 15 megs total of messages a day).

Any suggestions appreciated!

Adam McLean



Fri Feb 02 12:12:30 1996
Subject: 0128 FRENCH texte alch

Date: 02 Feb 96 05:45:19 EST
From: Marcus Williamson

Thierry,

On peut trouver quelques textes de Valentin a :

http://www.levity.com/alchemy

Merci
Marcus


Fri Feb 02 16:12:33 1996
Subject: 0129 Aurum potabile

Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 09:37:01 -0500
From: Gilbert Arnold


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 96 09:04:56 CST
From: hill@ra.timeplex.com (dan hill ON RA SERVER)


I tried some of the potable gold at Hanz N`s House a few years ago.
It had almost a sparkling feel on my tongue. Does anyone know what is
actually in the liquid and is it safe? All I had was a few drops under the
tongue but I felt brave that day.


LVX


<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Preparations (to be taken orally without medical supervision ) involving a
form of gold chloride, wine spirits along with what was called 'homeopathic
dilution' although prepared with good intent, (and for sale), are, in my
opinion, toxic.


Fri Feb 02 17:23:19 1996
Subject: 0130 answers?, questions ...

Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 08:55:28 -0800
From: joshua geller


> kcrist wrote:

> josh:
> belief can only come from the known. the known is the past the last
> moment or 40 centuries ago it is old it is conditioning it is the
> cause of fear. we believe through fear. thought breeds fear. there
> is the other way and that is the way of alchemy

I am confused. how does this relate to the statement "belief is
error"?

josh


Sat Feb 03 16:32:43 1996
Subject: 0131 Aurum potabile - Hudson again

Date: Fri, 2 Feb 96 10:21 PST
From: Diane Munoz

Michael Hyson wrote:
>
>I have joined this Alchemy list to search information on the
>"White Powder of Gold" of Dave Hudson.
>I am new to this. What can you tell me about this.
>
>Is it similar or related to the "potible gold"?
>
>Thanks
>Michael T. Hyson

Michael, I have seen Mr. Hudson speak a couple of times, and even
interviewed him. He has patented a process to produce the white powder and
transform it to different monoatomic states of the golds and silver. Some
people have started taking it as well with quite fantastic results (like
increased psychic awareness and the healing of the body back to it's
natural healthy state). In fact, I think this forum has discussed it a
couple of times. Do a search for "White Powder" or "David Hudson" and
you'll get the information. Of these talks he has given, there are audio
and video tapes,too. His intent was not to find this kind of thing! He was
looking for something else and it's what he hit upon! His presentation was
very comprehensive, but I don't think he's speaking anymore.

Diane


Sat Feb 03 16:33:51 1996
Subject: 0132 GERMAN: German alchemical Books

Date: 02 Feb 96 16:35:01 EST
From: Beat Krummenacher


Hallo Matthias,

diese Meldung ist in erster Linie an Dich adressiert. Da Du in Deutschland bist
und deutsche Literatur suchst, verfasse ich diese Mitteilung auch in Deutsch.

Alchemistische deutsche Neudrucke gibt es eine ganze Palette. Allerdings handelt
es sich meist um bekanntere Werke. Die Autoren, die Du genannt hast, sind fur
die praktische Arbeit sehr interessant, aber kaum neu aufgelegt worden. Deren
Schriften kannst Du dennoch bekommen, indem Du die Moglichkeit der Fernleihe in
einer grosseren Bibliothek benutzt. Auf diese Weise habe ich selber hunderte
alchemistischer Traktate gesammelt.

Nachteil: Die Suche eines Werkes kann lange Zeit dauern. Aber ein Alchemist muss
sowieso Geduld haben, weshalb das Suchen von Literatur eine gute Ubung fur diese
Tugend ist.

Freundlichen Grusse
Lapis


Sat Feb 03 16:35:04 1996
Subject: 0133 Aurum potabile

From: Jon Marshall
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 10:51:36 -0800


warning:::!!! possibly silly post ahead.

thinking about my last post on the subject, about the gold in aurem potabile
being homeopathic, and then thinking of vibrational medicine in general (flower
remedies, gem elixirs, radionic black box stuff etc.) and then thinking of
Frater Albertus's comment about alchemy being 'about' raising vibrations, and
van helmonts insitance that the archeus sickened because it was impregnated with
the wrong idea (origin of the computer virus?) and that alchemical medicines
were about reimposing the right idea (programme) in the archeus so that it would
work well, and sickness would be cured. And then van helmont talks, if i
remember correctly (and i'm not checking yet so as not to ruin an idea!) about
the IMAGE in this context.

And i wondered,.... One of my aquaintances *claims* to make medicines by
impregnating his thoughts on liquids.....

So i wondered again, if in fact the use of images in alchemy was not the exact
opposite of that proposed by Jung (ie that the alchemist passively projects onto
the retort, which stimulates interior phantasy)- that in fact the images of
lions and dragons were images of potency that were to be deliberatly projected
upon the working substance, in order to impregnate its "vibrations" with the
right qualities....

jon


Sat Feb 03 16:36:00 1996
Subject: 0134 Alchemy and Electricity

Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 22:33:17 -0500
From: RawnClarK


Dear Peter Van den Bossche,

Your quote begins "Le fluide electrique", and should be distinguished from
"electricity", as it is so much more. Common electricity is an example of
the
Electric Fluid, a manifestation of it.

I recommend Franz Bardon's "Initiation Into Hermetics" (pp.19-20, 184-189,
194-203, 233-250) for a good outline of the Theory and Practical usage of
the Electric *AND* Magnetic Fluids.

My experience has been that different metals, when they are dynamically
impregnated with said Fluids, express the Fluids in different ways. For
instance 24k gold will express an accumulation of the Electrical Fluid much
differently than will a 14k gold, or iron, or lead, etc. There are also
affinities
between the Fluids and specific metals; such as Electric with gold, and
Magnetic with Silver. My experience with metals has only been of the
practical-magical sort and not of the laboratory-Alchemy sort, so I hope
there's someone out there with a laboratory perspective!

I've applied the Fluids spagyrically to my own satisfaction, and am led to
think that they would be of essential value in a laboratory metallic Work.
Is
there anyone Working in this way? Any comments?

:) Rawn Clark


Sat Feb 03 16:37:59 1996
Subject: 0135 Aurum potabile (Hudson again?)

Date: Sat, 03 Feb 1996 00:58:07 -0500 (EST)
From: hyson


Recently, Adam McLean wrote:

When I have time I will archive the forum discussions on Hudson and place
them onto the Alchemy Web site. Check this out in a few weeks time. There is
an earlier thread of discussions of Hudson already on the Web site.

http://www/colloquium.co.uk/alchemy/


Adam McLean
--------

Thank you for this information. I will wait till the archives are added to
the web site. I would be glad to get email from members on the topic as
well. Congratulations on a very informative list and website.
There is something wonderful in the ancient art of alchemy being on the
Internet. May this exchange help us all to the truth.

Aloha
Michael Hyson

PS -- just for your information, my primary interest is dolphin research,
space travel research, including new propulsion and drive methods as well
as energy production through cold fusion and free energy. A related recent
interest is in biological transmutation of elements (like Kervan's data
on chickens and calcium and magnesium. All these topics seem relevant
to some parts of alchemy, since transmutation under fairly ordinary
conditions is one of the claims for alchemy.

Are there hard data that can be examined, perhaps from modern alchemists
that demonstrate transmutation or other effects generally denied by ordinary
physics and chemistry?

Thanks again!


Sat Feb 03 16:38:55 1996
Subject: 0136 answers?, questions ...

Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 23:01:44 -0800
From: joshua geller


> subrider@ix.netcom.com (Charlie Richards) writes:

> > I write:

> > > kcrist@gate.net writes:

> > > one can read paracelsus for instance and "believe" they understand
> > > alchemy. but it is and will allways remain a belief. there isnt
> > > much value in beliving in anything. the moment a belief becomes
> > > part of a persons mental agenda doubt comes in. as taoism states:
> > > those who speak do not know.

> >belief is error.

> How about where your thoughts are you are also...or, as you beleive so
> it will be established unto you.

possibly so, at least to some degree. or you may convince yourself
that things are some way in which they are not, in such a fundamental
sense that your functioning in the world is affected.

> What you believe is what you will HAVE in your life. If you believe
> YOU are something...sure enough you will become that.

> Here is another you should memoreze..."If you argue for your
> limitations long enough....sure enough they will be yours".

> What we believe, is the foundation of US. Take away belief, and you
> take away, hope, the future,and joy in your life. Your belief system
> is the inner you, that chlothes the outer you in your own reality.

> If fact your statement is a belief! A eronious one, but a belief. To
> state that when you believe doubt creeps in is...well how should I put
> this for delicate eyes...UNFOUNDED. Reality is just the opposite. To
> not believe is to doube. Belief makes one have a will of steel and
> that is the foundation of Alchemy.

> If you do not BELIEVE that it is possible to make the Stone, if you do
> not BELIEVE otheres have gone before us...then why bother. For that
> matter why bother living at all...if you believe in NOTHING...THAT IS
> WHAT YOU WILL HAVE, NOTHING.

a rather long exegesis. I prefer the unadorned statement.

josh


Sat Feb 03 16:40:17 1996
Subject: 0137 Prima Materia

Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 02:05:34 -0500
From: Flamel

Dear Petra,

I am sorry but I have not received the post you referred to in your Feb 2,
1996 post. I have posted another piece on the prima materia which I have not
seen yet. It is loosely organized around the idea of the "serpent" or
"snake" in alchemy and follows up a post of Patrick J. Smith on some ideas of
the author using the pseudonym, Fulcanelli.

You wrote:

>>How do we go from here? How can we get this Egg hatched? What outside
influence do we require, or does it happen from within?<<

Such questions are very important and arise naturally from reading alchemy,
they have certainly gripped me and I have spent the better part of my
professional life as a psychologist trying to come to terms with them. Of
course, each individual can reflect on the boiled down and distilled material
I have posted to see what thoughts and images their own meditations may
bring. This requires a certain amount of unprejudiced introspection that is
generally difficult for the modern mentality, esp. handicapped by the
postivistic premise that the truth is simple and can be expressed by one
short sentence.

Nevertheless, it is important to discuss such matters even without complete
understanding in order that we all strive to be, as it says in the alchemical
treatise, the "Liber Platonis quartorum," original 'investigators' into....
for lack of a better term, the objective psyche. This is a whole new world
opening up, and this research is done in the solitude of one's own individual
work on one's own psyche, or, on occasion, in individual mutual work on a
one-on-one basis with another. This is the only way that research of this
kind can take place.

With apologies to sending this to the list. A private email address was not
posted with the above message.

Cordially,
Maury

Feb 3, 1996


Sat Feb 03 16:41:52 1996
Subject: 0138 answers?, questions ...

Date: Sat, 3 Feb 96 20:09 NZDT
From: Pat Zalewski

>>
>How about where your thoughts are you are also...or, as you beleive so
>it will be established unto you.
>
>What you believe is what you will HAVE in your life. If you believe
>YOU are something...sure enough you will become that.
>
>Here is another you should memoreze..."If you argue for your
>limitations long enough....sure enough they will be yours".
>
>What we believe, is the foundation of US. Take away belief, and you
>take away, hope, the future,and joy in your life. Your belief system
>is the inner you, that chlothes the outer you in your own reality.
>
>If fact your statement is a belief! A eronious one, but a belief. To
>state that when you believe doubt creeps in is...well how should I put
>this for delicate eyes...UNFOUNDED. Reality is just the opposite. To
>not believe is to doube. Belief makes one have a will of steel and
>that is the foundation of Alchemy.
>
>If you do not BELIEVE that it is possible to make the Stone, if you do
>not BELIEVE otheres have gone before us...then why bother. For that
>matter why bother living at all...if you believe in NOTHING...THAT IS
>WHAT YOU WILL HAVE, NOTHING.
>
>Charlie
>
>
>Charlie
Whatever you are selling I am not buying.
Belief is a factor in some aspects of alchemy but I would hardly say it's a
necessity. If you want to see belief in ratbag causes then look at history
and today's news and none of them have come to pass.One of the best
alchemist's I have ever known who constantly produced result after result
was not a belief man. But alchemy is also a science, maybe of yesteryear,
but a science nevertheless. And as a science it must be analysed and
tested. If you want to fuse belief with that then all well and good but
belief to me is only a component to take on the fates and win. The science
(of the thing and in this case alchemy) is the methodology ot it.

Pat zalewski


Sat Feb 03 16:43:15 1996
Subject: 0139 re-creation

Date: Sat, 03 Feb 1996 09:15:33 +0100
From: Christian Vanden Berghen

Dear Diane,
Please excuse my poor English, but I would thank you because I had never
seen the Chaos in this way ! It is exactly that : a part of thr>
Thu Fe I'm sure this little remark will help me in my work. I read a book called
"La Theorie du Chaos" but I did not understand it till now.
Thank you
Christian


At 08:55 02/02/1996 GMT+0100, you wrote:
>Date: Thu, 1 Feb 96 12:52 PST
>From: Diane Munoz
>
>
>Also, I would like to point out that chaos only appears to be chaos because
>you're too close to the subject. There is always a perspective that shows
>the order in the chaos when you detach and move far enough away from it to
>view the whole picture. Chaos is an indication that you're only viewing a
>PART of the picture!
>
>And Nature is not IMPURE, it is in the throes of change, ie evolution. It's
>viewed as corrupted only by those (perhaps?) that don't want change and are
>afraid of evolution. Perfection is a limitation, you know? One must
>continue to expand so that it can attain that perspective to transmute the
>vision of chaos into order! :)
>
>Diane
>
>
>
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Christian VANDEN BERGHEN
Rota Solis asbl
Brussels/Belgium
christian.vanden.berghen@netropolis.be
ChristianVandenBerghen@msn.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


Sat Feb 03 16:44:26 1996
Subject: 0141 Druid Alchemy

Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 11:07:35 +0000
From: susan terrain

Gilbert Arnold wrote,
>The french Alchemists Solazaref wrote about Druid and Shamanic Alchemy
>in Europe. However, he wrote in French. I do not mind doing a bit of
>translation if this is intended for practical lab work.

How interesting Gilbert, I would be very glad of any snippets you would be
so gracious as to translate, especially if it would also be of interest to
others on the Forum. I do have pretty fair French however, and would be
glad to know how to find the work in the original as well.

Thanks also to George Leake for researching the etymology of
fferyllt....I'll look more closely into it myself, and post again if I find
out more.

With peace to all,
Susan


Sat Feb 03 16:50:57 1996
Subject: 0140 Taschen Alchemy Book

Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 16:00:40 +0000
From: Mark Bennett

>Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 09:22:47 -0600
>From: George Randall Leake III
>
>
>***there's some obvious mis-spellings in this bibliographic citation. Mark,
>can you re-check this? If alchemy is mis-spelled, how can we trust that
>ISBN # for instance?

I doubled checked the ISBN and it's ok. As for Alchemy I was typing fast
and I have awful spelling and dyslexia anyway.

Taschen will also be doing a postcard set which is due out in the Spring. I
have a spare couple of pages on the book which I could snail to Adam for
use on the website (if interested). I don't have a colour scanner otherwise
I'd e-mail it.

>>Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 20:23:41 +0000
>>From: Mark Bennett
>>Alechemy & Mysticism- Hermetic Museum
>>Alexandder Roob
>>ISBN 3-8228-8653-X
>>704pp
>>c 700 ills
>>Fall 96
>>
>>The quality of Taschen is very high and the colour reproduction in just
>>there catalogue is supurb. They will also be doing a postcard book at the
>>same time.
>>
>>Taschen UK (0171) 437 4350
>>Taschen America (212) 683 3377


Mark Bennett
Editor/Publisher - Black Ice Magazine
Executive Producer - Perspectives



Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.--Frank Zappa


Sat Feb 03 23:24:22 1996
Subject: 0142 Aurum Potabile

Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 09:52:54 -0700 (MST)
From: Tom Hennessy


> b) Gold is dissolved by thiourea, ferric oxide, etc. - a significant

Excuse me in my stupidity.

Does this mean that gold is 'destroyed'.. by
iron oxide or rust?

If gold is so good as a medicinal.. ie: collodiol
gold .. would it be 'destroyed'.. in our body by the 'excess iron'..
which was previously mentioned in an earlier post?

If we considered for a second... that our bodies were just a 'test
tube'.. full of water.. would rust {ferric oxide?} .. 'destroy'.. ALL.. the
'big'.. ones such as silver/gold/magnesium?

Or.. is ferric oxide .. NOT.. rust.

Again forgive my stupidity.

Who loves ya.
Tom http://www.nucleus.com/watchman


Sat Feb 03 23:24:34 1996
Subject: 0143 Questions for YOU ...

Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 09:07:03 -0800
From: joshua geller


> Charlie Richards writes:

> If you take the first path, then you don't need me or anyone else to
> tell you anything, because you, by now should know. If you take the
> later, splatering the feet of your teacher with mud will get you
> thrown out.

> I decide who I will teach, and no one else. I weigh each applicant and
> I decide who I will take time with and who I will put back to grow.

> So, you want to try this again?

thank you, no. you are too arrogant even for me.

always the best,

josh


Sat Feb 03 23:24:55 1996
Subject: 0144 why the stone?

Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 11:49:37 -0700
From: leslie grollman


has anyone gone the distance in a Sandplay process and in their review process,
compared their journey in Sandplay to the sefirot of the tree of life? this
question was inspired by my Sandplay process and Rawn's intelligent and poetic
discourses on the paths of the Tree.

leslie grollman
leslieg@indirect.com


Sat Feb 03 23:25:05 1996
Subject: 0145 Alchemy and Electricity

From: Jon Marshall
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 08:10:58 -0800

On Feb 1,
Van den Bossche Peter wrote
>
>
> Do any of you know about alchemical interpretations of Electricity?
> Although the classical books predate the electric age, I found an
> interesting statement in Fulcanelli (Demeures), which I quote (in French;
> accents omitted). It states the relationship between electricity, metals
> and fire.

there was an interesting and possibly relevant article by

dennis stillings "electricity, alchemy and the unconscious" in artifex vol 10,
spring 1992 pp29-39,

which you might be able to get hold of. he talks about a book by

ernst benz called *Theology of electricty*, pickwick publications 1989

which i keep meaning to get but havn't got round to yet. it apparantly discusses
the use of electricity as a metaphor for the primordial living light of god, and
hence its acretion of alchemical symbols, and its use in later alchemy or
alchemically influenced discourses.

jon


Sat Feb 03 23:25:16 1996
Subject: 0146 Belief is Error

Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 09:46:21 +1100
From: Petra Gottlieb


Belief is error if it just stays believe and not becomes conviction.
The Grail Message "In the Light of Truth" starts in this way:

FOR YOUR GUIDANCE! THE BANDAGE FALLS, and belief becomes conviction.
Liberation and redemption lie only in CONVICTION...
...Only he who bestirs himself can advance spiritually. The fool who uses
extraneous aids for this, in the form of the ready-made opinions of others,
only walks his path as if on crutches, while ignoring his own healthy limbs...
...Therefore awake! Genuine faith lies only in CONVICTION, and CONVICTION
comes solely through an inflexible weighing and examining! See that you are
truly alive in the wonderful Creation of your God!

---
Petra Christiane Gottlieb
>>OHNE LIEBE KEINE KUNST!<< (Paracelsus)
WITHOUT LOVE THERE IS NO ART!Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 09:46:21 +1100
X-Sender: petrag@iaccess.com.au
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
From: petrag@iaccess.com.au (Petra Gottlieb)
Subject: Belief is Error


Belief is error if it just stays believe and not becomes conviction.
The Grail Message "In the Light of Truth" starts in this way:

FOR YOUR GUIDANCE! THE BANDAGE FALLS, and belief becomes conviction.
Liberation and redemption lie only in CONVICTION...
...Only he who bestirs himself can advance spiritually. The fool who uses
extraneous aids for this, in the form of the ready-made opinions of others,
only walks his path as if on crutches, while ignoring his own healthy limbs...
...Therefore awake! Genuine faith lies only in CONVICTION, and CONVICTION
comes solely through an inflexible weighing and examining! See that you are
truly alive in the wonderful Creation of your God!

---
Petra Christiane Gottlieb
>>OHNE LIEBE KEINE KUNST!<< (Paracelsus)
WITHOUT LOVE THERE IS NO ART!


Sun Feb 04 14:52:04 1996
Subject: 0147 Aurum Potabile

Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 20:00:42 -0500 (EST)
From: John Reid

My understanding about aurum potable is that it contains no traces of gold
whatsoever. The idea is to get the salts of gold and extract from them a
red tincture. From this tincture can be distilled a yellow to red colored
oil, aka aurum potable.

Just dissolving gold into some solution will not do, because the toxic
properties of gold have not been removed. I have never made aurum potable,
but I have made the oils of Iron, copper, lead and antimony. When made
properly these substances contain no traces of the mineral in question.
This has been verified by spectroanlysis, gas and high pressure
chromotography, and atomic absorbtion that is sensitive enough to detects
in parts per trillion.

The problem with gold is that once it is taken out of the dissolving
medium the salts tend to go back into metallic form. This is why the
Philosophers Mercury is needed, it completly opens and dissolves the gold
yeilding up its soul, from which the oil of gold can be separated. At
least this is what the ancients claim.
Your Brother and Servant
John H. Reid III


Sun Feb 04 14:52:13 1996
Subject: 0148 Questions for YOU ...

From: Jon Marshall
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 11:50:00 -0800

On Feb 1, 9:01pm, Alchemy forum wrote:
> From: Diane Munoz

> Has anyone read "Hermes Unveiled" and/or "The Language of the Gods" by
> Roy Norvill? They are really fascinating in that they address the ancient
> myths, Bible included, fairy tales etc and view them from a perspective of
> Hermetic code. I think Mr. Norvill has come up with some ingenius
> understandings of the codes used in the Bible to explain the matter of
> enlightenment, transmutation, and the alchemical process of changing the
> body to have access and understanding of the finer realms.
>
> Any comments?

one of my aquaintances once thought that having read norvill (and don't forget
the final in the trilogy "the golden understanding", in which alchemy is
revealed to be positive thinking) he no longer had to read anything else on the
subject!

I personally find norvill's tendency to reduce history to fable somewhat over
deterministic. The 12 apostles may be fictions- but Edward Kelly was real. he is
too well documented to be otherwise.
And while robert Boyle certainly was engaged in alchemy and allegorical writing-
it is pretty much a travesty to imply that he was not interested in chemistry or
medicine in the normal sense, but covertly describing a purely mental work.

This is not to say that these books aren't interesting, but they should perhaps
be read with large amounts of salt- to ground them :)

jon


Sun Feb 04 14:52:22 1996
Subject: 0149 Ferric oxide?

Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 22:43:15 -0700 (MST)
From: Tom Hennessy



> > b) Gold is dissolved by thiourea, ferric oxide, etc. - a significant
>
> Excuse me in my stupidity.
>
> Does this mean that gold is 'destroyed'.. by
> iron oxide or rust?
>
> If gold is so good as a medicinal.. ie: collodiol
> gold .. would it be 'destroyed'.. in our body by the 'excess iron'..
> which was previously mentioned in an earlier post?
>
> If we considered for a second... that our bodies were just a 'test
> tube'.. full of water.. would rust {ferric oxide?} .. 'destroy'.. ALL.. the
> 'big'.. ones such as silver/gold/magnesium?
>
> Or.. is ferric oxide .. NOT.. rust.
>
> Again forgive my stupidity.
>
> Who loves ya.
> Tom http://www.nucleus.com/watchman
>


Sun Feb 04 14:52:32 1996
Subject: 0150 Lao Tzu Trismegistus?

Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 00:45:22 -0500
From: Rawn Clark


>Todd R. Rossman
>0068 answers?, questions ...
>
>He who knows does not speak.
>He who speaks does not know.
>Block all the passages!
>Shut all the doors!
>Blunt all edges!
>Untie all tangles!
>Harmonize all lights!
>Unite the worlds into one whole!
>This is called the Mystical Whole,
>Which you cannot court after nor shun,
>Benefit nor harm, honour nor humble.
>Therefore, it is the Highest of the world.
>>>>Lao Tzu

These words remind me of the following lines from the Emerald Tablet:

"....Its power is complete if turned towards Earth.
It will separate Earth from Fire, the Subtle from the Gross.
With great Wisdom it ascends from Earth to Heaven. Again it descends to
Earth, and takes back the power of the Above and the Below.
Thus you will receive the glory of the distinctiveness (light of Lights) of
the world. All obscurity will flee from you.
This is the whole most strong strength of all strength, for it overcomes all
subtle things, and penetrates all solid things...."

:) Rawn Clark
3 Feb 96