Alchemy Forum 1401-1450

From January 25th 1996, the Alchemy forum was restructured and the messages were sequentially numbered. This is an unedited extract of messages 1401-1450.
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Subject: 1401 P.B. Randolph (was: Admiraled)
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 10:35:11 -0500
From: george leake

>From: Roy M. Liuzza
>
>Re: Randolph and Bardon
>
>There is a good biographical chapter on Paschal Beverly Randolph in
>Joscelyn Godwin's 'The Theosophical Enlightenment' (Albany: SUNY Press,
>1994), pp. 247-275. No mention of Bardon, as far as I can remember, but
>Godwin does connect Randolph's ideas to the Hermetic Brotherhood of Luxor.

*I've been resisting bringing this up, but some scholars also assert that
Randolph had considerable influence on Victorian era occultists like one
Dr. Berridge and Aleister Crowley, both advocates of ceremonial or sex
magick. The latter techniques are said to have sympathy with other
techniques ranging from tantra to the alchemical wedding.

-G.Leake, 512-471-9117 taliesin@mail.utexas.edu

Subject: 1402 P.B. Randolph (was: Admiraled)
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 10:52:51 -0500 (CDT)
From: John C. Merritt

> From: Roy M. Liuzza
>
> Re: Randolph and Bardon
> There is a good biographical chapter on Paschal Beverly Randolph in
> Joscelyn Godwin's 'The Theosophical Enlightenment' (Albany: SUNY Press,
> 1994), pp. 247-275. No mention of Bardon, as far as I can remember, but
> Godwin does connect Randolph's ideas to the Hermetic Brotherhood of Luxor.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The Brotherhood of Luxor is covered in a book of the same title by
Godwin, Christian Chanel and John P. Deveney (York Beach Maine: Samuel
Weiser, 1995). No mention of Bardon, but there was definately a
connection between Randolph and the Brotherhhod of Luxor.

Deveney has also written a biography of Randolph entitled 'Paschal Beverly
Randolph: a Nineteenth Century Black American Spiritualist, Rosicrution
and Sex Magician' which is scheduled to be published in October by the
State University of New York Press.

----------| John Merritt | beowulf@bga.com |---------

Subject: 1403 Julius de Evola and C.G. Jung
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 96 18:33 +0100
From: Waldemar Hammel

I have a question to the members of the list, which seems important to me:

In one of the recent letters Evola is titled to be one of the luminaries of
alchemia, in many other letters the psychoanalyst C.G. Jung is mentioned.

Is it known that Julius de Evola was during World War II closely cooperating
with the Italian fascists, and that after the war he was punished by the Allied
forces? I read some books about Evola, his life was every thing else, but not
the life of a homo illuminatus. After the war, when his reputation was down,
he began to work on magic and alchemia, he was really a shady character,
not internally clean, not divine, nothing of that.

Should alchemia rely on such people?

The same with C.G. Jung, who made up psychoanalytical theses during
Hitler's government to support the fascist's racism. After the war, surely,
he changed his opinion. He produced during all his life a lot of pseudo-scientific things, but the support of racism should reduce his reputation to zero!
Shall we really forget all that today and rely upon that not integral, not
serious person?

Shall the divine art of alchemia be so cheap??

With my best regards

Waldemar Hammel

Subject: 1404 Dutch translations
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 22:04:27 +0200
From: Arianne Wopereis

> From: douwe
>
> If there are any Dutch people around on the forum, who would like to receive
> Dutch translations of alchemical works for free in order to proofread them
> with a pencil at hand then I would be very happy to hear about it.
> The whole lot contains the following:
>
> De 12 sleutels van Basilius valentinus, Atlanta vlucht van Michael Maier,
> het boek van Lambspring, de Alwijze deurwachter, Het geheim van de
> onsterfelijke vloeistof alcahest door Eiraneus Philaletes, De bereidingen
> van de sofische mercurius door E. Philaletes, een eigen verhandeling over de
> smaragden tafel, een aantal losse epigrammen en gedichten, en tot slotte de
> Hieroglifische monade van John Dee.
>.....
> I hope that someone will be able to help me out on this.
>
> douwe.
> darus@xs4all.nl
> Sapientae apex, desperatio de rebus mundi.

Beste Douwe,

Ik heb je al eerder geschreven toen ik terugkwam van vakantie en je tips
kreeg. Allereerst je verzoek. uiteraard ben ik van harte bereid om je
vertalingen te lezen en te screnen op taal. Zeg me maar hoeveel het is
en wat je nodig hebt, dan kijk ik wat ik kan doen.

Verder is er iets misgegaan denk ik met mijn antwoord op jouw hulp. Ik
heb het zenden met E-mail nog niet helemaal onder de knie geloof ik. Ik
heb een aantal vragen nog over de tips die je schreef. Ik ben je er
dankbaar voor en zal het gaan doen zoals je zei.

Kan je mij laten weten of ik je ook kan schrijven, dan weet ik tenminste
zeker dat het aankomt.

hartelijke groet,

Bas Klinkhamer

Subject: 1405 Re: Tyson
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 96 08:03 NZST
From: Pat Zalewski

This is probably out of place in forum but I will post this anyway. If you
guys think Tyson is a nut, then I will tell you that it was him Llewellyns
sent my 1000 page manuscript on the Golden Dawn Tarot. He questioned just
about every form of magical association, and could not understand the
obvious. Needless to say since Llewellyns is not publishing it I hold no
brief for him.

Pat zalewski

Subject: 1406 Julius de Evola and C.G. Jung
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 96 08:08 NZST
From: Pat Zalewski

>To Waldemar Hammel

In reply to your post about Jungs racist statements. Is it the singer or the
song you should be worried about ?

Subject: 1407 Alchemical Tarot deck
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 13:21:21 -0700
From: Dennis William Hauck

Rosemary Eileen Guiley has just published an interesting Tarot Deck and
accompanying book THE ALCHEMICAL TAROT which does an excellent job of connecting the archetypal symbolism of the two hermetic arts. It seems
that much of the Tarot symbolism is based on the processes of alchemy.
The book/card set is published by Thorsens, an imprint of HarperCollins.

Subject: 1408 Julius de Evola and C.G. Jung
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 15:08:24 -0500
From: george leake

>From: Waldemar Hammel

>Is it known that Julius de Evola was during World War II closely cooperating
>with the Italian fascists, and that after the war he was punished by the Allied
>forces? [edited for brevity]

*I believe Godwin characterizes Evola as being so out there he was to the
right of the Mussolini government. To keep this related to alchemy
discussion, I think we should draw this analogy--should literary critics
ignore Ezra Pound because of his wartime sympathies with the same
government? Of course not. Ezra Pound was a great writer, and apparently
Evola has made important contributions to the study of hermeticism. Reading
him is not going to change one's spots.

>The same with C.G. Jung, who made up psychoanalytical theses during
>Hitler's government to support the fascist's racism. Shall the divine art
>of alchemia be so cheap??

*well, argument about the veracity of this statement aside, again I would
pose the same argument here--is there something in Jung that is worthwhile?
And are you saying that in order for us all to study or take seriously one
man's work, they have to be "a saint" in the eyes of your or somebody
else's narrowly defined value system? Everyone has an achilles heel. What
should be important here is whether they have anything of value for us. One
should be as critical about what they accept as what they reject.

-G.Leake, 512-471-9117 taliesin@mail.utexas.edu

Subject: 1409 New subscriber with questions / comments
From: Atheris
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 96 21:45:18 +0100 ( + )

Philip O'Neil wrote on 25 Jul 1996:

snip
>Our good friend Edward Kelley ( real name Talbot) wandering around
>England after having his ears lopped off by a Lancashire executioner
>for fraud....

I thoroughly enjoyed your amusing, intelligent and, *above all*,
well-written posting. It was a real treat to read some grammatically and
syntactically correct English. Doesn't seem to happen too often these
days.....

With regard to Meyrinck's 'Der Engel vom Westlichen Fenster',
although I have not read it for years and years I do however seem to
remember that St.Dunstan is mentioned, and that the red and white
phials were in some way brought into connection with him? Perhaps
you remember (easier to ask you than for me to wade through the
whole book again!)?

Adrian Monk

Subject: 1410 Gnosis Magazine - European subscription
From: Sean Brooks
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 13:08:32 -0700

Here is the address for European subscriptions to Gnosis Magazine.

Chthonios Books
7 Tamarisk Steps
Hastings
TN34 3DN, UK
PH. 0424-433-302

price 23.90 pounds for 1 year (4 issues)
outside Britain 26.90 (air mail)

checks, eurochecks,visa or access/mastercard/eurocard

Sean

Subject: 1411 Surrealism and alchemy - Bosch
From: Jon Marshall
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 09:39:11 -0700

> For alchemy and Bosch see:
>
> Laurinda S. Dixon - Alchemical Imagery in Bosch's Garden Of Delights.
> UMI Research Press, 1981. [This is a revised version of her Ph.D. thesis at
> Boston University.]

there is also the correspondence from the alchemy forum on this subject at

http://www.levity.com/alchemy/f-bosch.html

from the days when I was among the most verbose people on this list :)

jon

Subject: 1412 Alchemical Tarot deck
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 96 12:02 NZST
From: Pat Zalewski

>From: Dennis William Hauck
>
>Rosemary Eileen Guiley has just published an interesting Tarot Deck and
>accompanying book THE ALCHEMICAL TAROT which does an excellent job of
>connecting the archetypal symbolism of the two hermetic arts. It seems
>that much of the Tarot symbolism is based on the processes of alchemy.
>The book/card set is published by Thorsens, an imprint of HarperCollins.

Could you post her alchemical associations to the trumps?

Subject: 1413 New subscriber with questions / comments
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 20:30:06 -0500 (CDT)
From: David Roberts

> >From: David Roberts
> > For some
> >private research I am trying to recall the source of a story I once read.

From Philip O'Neil

> Our good friend Edward Kelley ( real name Talbot) wandering around England
> after having his ears lopped off by a Lancashire executioner for fraud
> supposedly came across a strange manuscript in a Welsh Inn which was found
> along with two ivory phials in the grave of a monk. One contained a red
> powder, the other white and with these an indecipherable text.
(snip)
> which fills Dee with such dread that he throws them from the window.
> (snip)
as Dees character is juggled between adept and
> spy whose European adventures were nothing more than undercover operations
> for his loyal service to Queen and country.

From David Roberts:

Dear Mr. O'Neil, Profound thanks for this information. A further
query, if I may be permitted ... If this story describes, then, what we
might call the transmogrification process, does it also describe (after
dissolution and sublimation) a separation? And from whom or what is the
adept separated? In other words, is it possible to serve Queen and
country & God at once?

Regards,

David Roberts

Subject: 1414 Franciscans & alchemy
From: Jon Marshall
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 11:40:08 -0700

Some people may remember long ago there was a discussion on the forum about
alchemy, monasteries and the inquisition.
A new book (Andrea De Pascalis, Alchemy the Golden Art, Gremese, Rome 1995)
contains some futher information which i will inflict upon people here.

Br. Elias Buonbarone (of Crotona) joined the Franciscans in 1211. He travelled
with the crusaders to Syria in 1217 returning in 1221. On St Francis' death in
1227 he was one of the contenders for succession to leadership of the order,
which position he obtained in 1232 and from which he was deposed on charges of
heresy, but more likely for being out of his political depth as a go between
between Gregory IX and Frederick II.

The Franciscan chronicler Salimbene of Adam complained (c.1258) of "the infamy
he [Elias] brought upon himself by having taken an active interest in the
practise of alchemy. In fact whenever rumour reached his ears that there were
friars within the order who had studied this science of deception he would
summon them to stay with him at the Gregorian Palace" and retels a story of
Gerard of Cremona being troubled by noises he attributed to demons when staying
there in 1247.

De pascalis suggests also that this is the Elias mentioned by Michael Scot.
[Thorndike in his book on Scot agrees with this identification but is doubtful
Scot wrote the books in question]

I don't want to repeat the dates of the baning of alchemy in monasteries again,
but De pascalis quotes from ch 113 of the 1279 edition of the Friars minors'
Constitutiones Generales Antique.
"Similarly, may the minister-general together with the general chapter
categorically forbid in the name of the Holy Spirit, any friar to practise or
teach the techniques of alchemy, necromancy, spellcasting, magic or any other
superstition or sorcery or operation pertaining to other questionable doctrines
and arts that are not carried out in the light of day or that are forbidden by
the Church, and in general any form of deceptive or loathsome activity such as
the summoning of demons or the casting of spells on people and things. May no
friar dare to possess, write, prepare for himself or for others, lend or give to
others, ask for or receive in any way books or writings on such things...."

As well as the franciscans and dominicans, the Cistercians also banned alchemy
in 1317.

De Pascalis asks why the apparantly tolerant attitude of the Church changed so
rapidly at the begining of the 13th century, and suggests that this has to do
with the "Third Age" movement associated with the writings of Joachim de Fiore
which were condemned by the Lateran Council in 1215. He suggests that Fiore's
writings were popular among Franciscans and that some Franciscan alchemists saw
the coming of the Paraclete as equivalent to the resurrection of nature through
the Great Work (John of Rupescissa is his example).

De pascalis agrees the decretal of John XXII is directed against coining rather
than alchemy, and points out it was this pope who 9 years later issued the Bull
Super illius specula which made witchcraft a heresy so that the inquisition
could persue witches, and the difference between this and the bull on alchemy is
obvious.
Commentators on Canon and civil law also tended to ignore the anti alchemy bull.

So though my earlier argument that the Church was not opposed to alchemy as such
needs modification, I would still hold that alchemists were not necessarily
forced to become secret by the inquisition, or Church hostility, and that levels
of hostility do not seem to have been uniform over time.

jon

Subject: 1415 Julius de Evola and C.G. Jung
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 21:27:57 -0500 (CDT)
From: cbr

> C.G. Jung, who made up psychoanalytical theses during
> Hitler's government to support the fascist's racism. After the war, surely,
> he changed his opinion. He produced during all his life a lot of
> pseudo-scientific things, but the support of racism should reduce his
> reputation to zero!

I am new to this list, and study of alchemy. I have studied jung, among
others as a philosopher however, and have managed to remain ignorant of
the collaboration to which you point above. would you be able to
direct me to some of jung's works in which this is evident? I would mightily
appreciate the enlightenment.

regarding the question of the character of the adept: it seems to me
that all actions and events must be read as revealing of the spirit who
is their author, and so such action, consistently practiced, must evince
some lack on the part of the actor. however, i also believe it important
to refrain from dismissing all of a spirit's work on the basis of some of
their actions. the persistence and the depth of both the thoughts and
the actions must be weighed, and in the end neither may tell conclusively
against the other.

regards, chris

Subject: 1416 Enochian Apocalypse
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 13:11:56 +1000 (EST)
From: Gionni Di Gravio

Dear Marcella, Clay and others,

Clay, the ideas mentioned in the Tyson article remind me of a paper that
Chris Whitby delivered at the Dee Colloquium on John Dee and the end of
the world. Whitby proposed that Dee and Kelly were under the belief that
they could somehow get privileged information from the angels concerning
God's future intentions on the Apocalyse, and so be involved in the new
world order that would ensue.

The reason for the apocalyptic bend was the supernova that had
appeared in the skies at the time in the constellation
Cassiopeia. It formed a cross in the heavens, which gave celestial
observers at the time a sign that God was about to precipitate a great
occurence.

Apologies if this has strayed from the alchemical focus, perhaps this
topic would better be discussed on the John Dee forum.

Sincerely,

Gionni Di Gravio
ulgd@dewey.newcastle.edu.au
Archives and Special Collections, Auchmuty Library
University of Newcastle, Australia

Subject: 1417 New subscriber
From: Stepanova Irena
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 96 10:15:00 C

Hello everybody,
I am a new subscriber from Prague. I have graduated from the Technical University and Academy of Fine Arts and now I am a webmaster at Czech Ministry of Education and organist at St. Nicholas Church. I can recommend to you the web pages of our Czech hermetic Society Universalia www.terminal.cz/universalia. However I am wrapped into mythology so far
(especially Egyptian and Greece), I know definitely that Alchemy is for
me the "Science for the Future" since I am living in Prague, where
Alchemy was and maybe IS very succesful.

Sincerely Yours

Irena Stepanova

Subject: 1418 Alchemical Tarot deck
From: Semi
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 09:51:00 +0000

> From: Dennis William Hauck
>
> Rosemary Eileen Guiley has just published an interesting Tarot Deck and
> accompanying book THE ALCHEMICAL TAROT which does an excellent job of
> connecting the archetypal symbolism of the two hermetic arts. It seems
> that much of the Tarot symbolism is based on the processes of alchemy.
> The book/card set is published by Thorsens, an imprint of HarperCollins.

Maybe I'm an "old-time-lover" - but most of these compilations seems to lose both the original symbolism of Tarot, and the symbolism of Alchemy.
(Maybe this is not the case...)

Recent times (the past 100 years) launched a lot of Tarot derivates, which are just "somehow similar to Tarot", but make a total mix of ideas and symbols.
Then the original Tarot, used to encryption (for example Sefer Jecira), etc. gets spoiled and lost by these... With new and new Tarot decks comes the danger of losing the only true original one and the traditions bound to it...

Correct me, if I'm wrong...

Semi.

Subject: 1419 Dee and Kelly transmuting powder
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 10:24:37 +0100
From: Philip O'Neil

From Adrian Monk
>I thoroughly enjoyed your amusing, intelligent and, *above all*,
>well-written posting. It was a real treat to read some grammatically and
>syntactically correct English. Doesn't seem to happen too often these
>days.....
>With regard to Meyrinck's 'Der Engel vom Westlichen Fenster',
>although I have not read it for years and years I do however seem to
>remember that St.Dunstan is mentioned, and that the red and white
>phials were in some way brought into connection with him? Perhaps
>you remember (easier to ask you than for me to wade through the
>whole book again!)?

Later on in the book Kelley appears at Dee's house in Mortlake with the
spheres that Dee managed to throw from the window earlier. Time and spirits
seems somewhat fickle in the text. However, Dee realises there is something
more in the red and white spheres. "I was astonished, for the colour and
texture of the materia immediately called to and the frequent descriptions
of the materia transmutationis of the alchymical adepts..." pg 179.
Subsequently Kelley unscrews the half containing the red powder and "from
the hollow cup shone the glow of the royal powder. the "Red Lion" pg 180.
Kelley tells him the source of spheres and text: the grave of St
Deniol whose body lay preserved and the spheres attached in a peculiar way
to his mouth and forehead. Kelley alludes to St Deniol as a great adept.
Their experiment with the powders produces "almost ten ounces of
silver from twenty ounces of lead and from the same quantity of tin no less
than ten ounces of pure gold.". Dee swears he will never use the powders to
enrich himself but that he would seek to extract the secret of the lapide
philosophorum from the writings found with St Deniol.
I suggest those interested purchase the book as this meeting leads on to
the summoning of the Angel and the strange collaboration of Dee and the
earless one.

Yours Philip

Subject: 1420 Dee and Kelly transmuting powder
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 10:38:06 +0100
From: Philip O'Neil

> Dear Mr. O'Neil, Profound thanks for this information. A further
>query, if I may be permitted ... If this story describes, then, what we
>might call the transmogrification process, does it also describe (after
>dissolution and sublimation) a separation? And from whom or what is the
>adept separated? In other words, is it possible to serve Queen and
>country & God at once?
>
>Regards,
>
>David Roberts

Dear David,

Dee says (in the fictionalised diaries) "Surely I will need but a tiny
amount of the powder to distill from it the important essence, this myself
to live on until the day of the "Chymical marriage" with my Queen, when I
shall see the Baphomet within me realised and the Crown of Life above my
head. May this "Lion" from this day forward lead mw on to my Queen."

The only problem being that, bessotted as he is with Queen Elizabeth whose
reign seems both terrestrial and spiritual the attraction to the Queen can
be seen in terms romantic, sexual and spiritual but, then again maybe that
is what the good doctor is trying to work out with his laboratorial
tinkerings.

Yours from Prague

Philip O'Neil

Subject: 1421 Dutch translations
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 10:44:16 +0100
From: Van den Bossche Peter

>> From: douwe
>>
>> If there are any Dutch people around on the forum, who would like to receive
>> Dutch translations of alchemical works for free in order to proofread them
>> with a pencil at hand then I would be very happy to hear about it.

>> I hope that someone will be able to help me out on this.
>> douwe.
>> darus@xs4all.nl
>> Sapientae apex, desperatio de rebus mundi.

Graag ben ik bereid aan uw initiatief mee te werken.

Peter Van den Bossche

*******************************************
Van den Bossche Peter
CITELEC c/o VUB-ETEC
Pleinlaan 2
B-1050 Brussels
Voice: 32-2-6293807
Fax: 32-2-6293620
Email: pvdbos@vnet3.vub.ac.be

Subject: 1422 Some comments
From: Mr Shaun de Waal
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 10:50:03 +0200 (SAST)

I am new to this group, but I wanted to make some comments about
alchemy that has resulted from trying to work thought the alchemical
process in a practical way over the last five or six years. It may be
that what I have to say will seem obvious to some of you so please
bear with me if it is.

In puzzling over the nature of alchemy, it has recently become
apparent to me that the clue to the production of the
philosophers stone both spiritually and materially lies in the
obvious. The alchemical process deals with metals, minerals, the
elements.

To me the obvious conclusion is that all this points to the fact
that the process of change occurs on a sub-molecular level.
If you look at eastern teachings and other types of exploration of
consciousness, they focus on going within and looking for various
things, whether a symbol, a sound, the vibration of the universe, etc.

Take this process one step further, what makes our world what it
is: the combination of the elements, the molecules or rather
our perception of them. This leads directly to the senses as a
clue. With regard to humanity you have five senses that can be related
to the five elements. Hermetic tradition does this: eyesight to fire,
etc.

This seems to me is a key to the unfolding process. I have alluded to
this in my book "Gold Like Dust." It details some alchemical
experiments written in the form of a novel and story.

Orphiel in his books also alludes to this process and he has
recently added new illumination for me, as to this process. I
am working through this process with exercises dealing with the
senses, symbols and elements related to this time to see if I can
prove this further. I started last night and this morning have found
an increased sense of wellbeing, but it is early yet.

What do people think?

Shaun de Waal

*********************************************************************

Leaders of the world need to encourage people to dream. Without
dreams our world will die. All great inventions, progress have come
through individuals who dare to dream.

Shaun de Waal
Share my dreams -

under penname
Michael Morain:http://www.writersg.com/writers/index.html

Subject: 1423 Julius de Evola and C.G. Jung
From: Stuart Inman
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 12:46:14 GMT

I view fascists, racists and similar riff-raff with horror. If Evola
was always of the far right then I would not find him to be an
exception. However, I am reminded that Milarepa, one of the most
important figures in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition started off as a
mass-murderer. How did Evola end up?

Stuart

Subject: 1424 Tyson
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 08:24:47 -0500
From: george leake

>From: Pat Zalewski

>This is probably out of place in forum but I will post this anyway. If you
>guys think Tyson is a nut, then I will tell you that it was him Llewellyns
>sent my 1000 page manuscript on the Golden Dawn Tarot. He questioned just
>about every form of magical association, and could not understand the
>obvious. Needless to say since Llewellyns is not publishing it I hold no
>brief for him.

*imho, Tyson has edited far and away the best work Llewellyn has published
(Agrippa's De Occulta Philosophia). No substantive complaints have been
aired yet regarding his work with that. Perhaps an air of mediocrity has
rubbed off on him since?

-G.Leake, 512-471-9117 taliesin@mail.utexas.edu

Subject: 1425 Alchemical Tarot deck
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 08:21:35 -0500
From: george leake

>From: Dennis William Hauck
>
>Rosemary Eileen Guiley has just published an interesting Tarot Deck and
>accompanying book THE ALCHEMICAL TAROT which does an excellent job of
>connecting the archetypal symbolism of the two hermetic arts. It seems
>that much of the Tarot symbolism is based on the processes of alchemy.
>The book/card set is published by Thorsens, an imprint of HarperCollins.

*and in case any of you don't know this, there are other decks which have
been around for decks employing alchemical and hermetic imagery, including
AE Waite's Rider-Waite deck, Aleister Crowley's Thoth deck, and Lon Milo
DuQuette's Tarot of Ceremonial Magick.

-G.Leake, 512-471-9117 taliesin@mail.utexas.edu

Subject: 1426 Dee and Kelly transmuting powder
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 12:36:12 -0700
From: Clay Holden

Philip O'Neil wrote:

>Our good friend Edward Kelley ( real name Talbot) wandering around England
>after having his ears lopped off by a Lancashire executioner for fraud
>supposedly came across a strange manuscript in a Welsh Inn which was found
>along with two ivory phials in the grave of a monk. One contained a red
>powder, the other white and with these an indecipherable text. Armed with
>these Kelley charged off to see John Dee convinced that the spirits
>conjured up via his scrying stone would be able to translate the text.
> [...]
> [various references to Meyrink's fiction snipped]

I do understand that the original question addressed the legend, not the man.

However...

With regard to the facts of Dee and Kelly's alchemical work, one should
realize that Gustav Meyrink's work "The Angel of the West Window", while
entertaining, gets almost every known fact about both Dee and Kelly wrong.
But then, so do nearly all fictional works and many of the purportedly
non-fiction biographical accounts.

In particular, so much nonsense has been written about Kelly, and he is
such an easy target, that separating the facts from the fiction is probably
a job which can only be accomplished by an alchemist.

There is, for instance, no evidence whatever that Edward Kelly ever had his
ears cropped. This "fun fact" is not backed up with evidence or dates, and
has only its antiquity to recommend it. It has subsequently been trotted
out and repeated by everyone who has written a biographical sketch of him.

A.E. Waite (whatever his limitations as a stylist) appears to have written
the best and most balanced account in his introduction to "The Alchemical
Writings of Edward Kelly", where he states that "...the 'skryer' of Doctor
Dee and the discoverer of the so-called 'Book of Saint Dunstan' has been
accredited with many iniquities of which he does not seem to have been
guilty." (In passing, it should be noted that Waite had himself been guilty
of publishing the same libels in an earlier work, though he was not the
author.)

Waite also questions the likelihood that a man branded a criminal with
cropped ears would have been welcomed in the circles he frequented, which
included the royalty of more than one country. Certainly Dee would have
made mention of the fact that Kelly had no ears in his personal diaries,
where such a "fact" is notably absent.

These facts are verifiable:

* Kelly was first introduced to Dee as "Edward Talbot", but by November 1582
is thereafter referred to as "Edward Kelly". The fact that he had a brother
(Thomas) also named Kelly suggests rather that the name "Talbot" was false
than vice versa.

* Kelly did have the red powder. It is attested to by Dee in both his personal
diaries and in the Spirit Diaries.

* Whatever its source, Kelly's copy of the Book of Saint Dunstan also existed,
and appeared at the same time as the red powder and the mysterious scroll.

* The "indecipherable text" was found by Dee to be a simple cipher, which he
decoded and included in his Spirit Diaries, along with its translation. It
purports to be a treasure map, and was in all likelihood a forgery.

* These do not appear until 23 March 1583 (Kelly had been working as Dee's
skryer for over a year) and were found at Northwick Hill, not Glastonbury.

The best sources for the *legend* of the two phials of red and white powder
of projection, the Book of Saint Dunstan, and the digging at Glastonbury
are Elias Ashmole's account in his "Theatrum Chemicum Britannicum", Waite's
"Alchemical Writings of Edward Kelly", and "Alchemists Through the Ages"
(edited by Waite). which will refer the reader who cares to pursue the
matter further to additional sources.

The best sources for the actual activities of Edward Kelly and the powder
of projection can be found in Dee's "A True and Faithful Relation...",
edited by Meric Casaubon, particularly the sections around 1586.

Reading Kelly's alchemical works and Dee's Spirit Diaries paints a
different picture of him than the shady rogue legend would have us accept.
One way or the other, he is definitely a larger than life character.

Incidentally, August 1st celebrates the 441st anniversary of Kelly's
birthday, a significant number for the man who skryed the "Sigillum DEI
Aemeth" in Dee's crystal, and who wrote "I venture to hope that my life and
character will so become known to posterity that I may be counted among
those who have suffered much for the sake of truth." The word "Aemeth" in
Hebrew means truth, and has the value of 441 by gematria.

Perhaps Ashmole's biographical sketches of Dee and Kelly from the
"Theatrum..." ought to be typed up and submitted to Adam's web-site. If
nobody else wants to offer, I guess I can do it in the next couple of
weeks.

Clay
Clay Holden

Subject: 1427 Tyson
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 96 08:33 NZST
From: Pat Zalewski

George

Having the air of knowing, and knowing, are two completely different things.

Pat zalewski

Subject: 1428 Julius de Evola and C.G. Jung
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 15:52:01 -0500 (CDT)
From: John C. Merritt

> From: Stuart Inman
>
> I view fascists, racists and similar riff-raff with horror. If Evola
> was always of the far right then I would not find him to be an
> exception. However, I am reminded that Milarepa, one of the most
> important figures in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition started off as a
> mass-murderer. How did Evola end up?
>
> Stuart
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Another Italian philosopher with hermetic leanings and fascist politics
was Giovanni Gentile, who did an edition of Bruno's Italian writings.

Issue # 14 (Winter 1990) of 'Gnosis' has two articles on Evola, one of
which deals specificaly with his fascist connections.

On Jung and the Nazis, see 'Lingering Shadows: Jungians, Freudians and
Anti-Semitism' edited by Aryeh Maidenbaum and Stephen A Martin (Boston:
Shambala, 1991).

----------| John Merritt | beowulf@bga.com |---------

Subject: 1429 Ayurvedic Alchemy
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 16:28:17 -0500
From: A'yin Da'ath

Hello everyone.

I just got a copy of the ...Of the Jungle Catalog today, and noticed mention
of 'Ayurvedic Alchemists' when discussing some plants. I'm curious about
exactly what they mean by this, and was curious to see if anyone has any
further information about this topic.

They're Indian, are they not? Is their alchemy different from the Western
'hermetic' tradition? Is it different from the Eastern, Chinese tradition?
Exactly how does it fit in, and also what connection does it have with botany?

Oh, before we get into this, let me add that the mention was in a
description of a psychoactive plant. I don't want to get into any heated
debates over that stuff (it belongs on a different list) again. If you plan
on saying anything to the effect of 'ethnopharmacology, psychoactivity,
drugs, or anything like this have no connection with alchemy,' then please
do not respond. If you can add anything of content, then please do.

ayindaath@worldnet.att.net

Subject: 1430 Julius de Evola and C.G. Jung
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 01:06:15 +0200 (MET DST)
From: douwe

>From: Stuart Inman
>I view fascists, racists and similar riff-raff with horror. If Evola
>was always of the far right then I would not find him to be an
>exception. However, I am reminded that Milarepa, one of the most
>important figures in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition started off as a
>mass-murderer. How did Evola end up?

Funny that you thought of Milarepa.., I too have thought about the
same man in this very same context...

Just how the sorcerer turns to become the saint, is not such a strange
happening, most Saints started off as lawbreakers...

I still wonder about the information about Jung. I only know that he
predicted WW-2 as some delayed reaction on WW-1 through which
mass-dissatisfaction would lead to a mass neurosis. I also seem to remember
that he foresaw the dangers of Hitler, probably as a classic psychological
case of that kind :-)
I can't exactly remember where I have read this, it might be his 'dreams and
reflections' or such.
Further I thought to have read that he just kept a low profile, just doing
research and treating his patients, just like most intellectuals, not very
much bothered by politics at all, apart from some psychoanalytical viewpoint
maybe.

I am not sure if all this fascist hunting is in it's place here, you take
from a work what you need, if you feel that it is worthy enough for you to
learn from, fine...

B.T.W. Someone once blamed me for being a fascist, because I happen to like
Nietzsche, Steiner, and Wagner too, and those three together, well that is a
concoction of fascism.

There are probably enough people around who enjoyed the alchemical writings
of Edward Kelly, and I am sure that a lot found them to be very valuable
while his reputation doesn't seem to be so great when it is taken at face
value. The same holds true of Paracelsus and many other great names...

douwe.
darus@xs4all.nl
Sapientae apex, desperatio de rebus mundi.

Subject: 1431 Alchemical Tarot deck
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 19:57:54 -0400
From: Rawn Clark

In a message dated 96-07-26 07:46:11 EDT, you write:

>Maybe I'm an "old-time-lover" - but most of these compilations seems to lose
>both the original symbolism of Tarot, and the symbolism of Alchemy.
>(Maybe this is not the case...)
>
>Recent times (the past 100 years) launched a lot of Tarot derivates, which
>are just "somehow similar to Tarot", but make a total mix of ideas and
>symbols.
>Then the original Tarot, used to encryption (for example Sefer Jecira), etc.
>gets spoiled and lost by these... With new and new Tarot decks comes the
>danger of losing the only true original one and the traditions bound to
>it...
>
>Correct me, if I'm wrong...
>
>Semi.

Dear Semi,

I disagree (though I can't speak specifically to this new Alchemical Tarot)
with your comments for several reasons:

1) Tarot, like Alchemy, is a living tradition, not a static thing. The mere
fact of the existence of so many tarot, and pseudo-tarot, decks is proof of
this, regardless of what one may think of each individual deck's worth. And
this Alchemy Forum alone, evinces the aliveness of Alchemy! ;) Living
things evolve and continuously re-interpret the past into the context of the
present moment, and visa versa. These new Tarot decks seem just a natural
part of Tarot's evolution.

2) We each cherish the mythology we choose, no? A very popular mythology of
the Tarot is that is has ancient Egyptian (or any other land of personal
choice) origins, having been passed down occultly through the millennia.
While this is *symbolically* meaningful, it is just as historically untrue
as are the mythologies surrounding the origins of the Torah, the New
Testament, the Emerald Tablet of Hermes, and probably most of our sacred
texts. I think it is important to separate mythology from history when we
consider the origins of Tarot and especially when we speak in such dogmatic
terms as "the only true original one".

3) We are five centuries into a long rush of new Tarot decks...some of them
have been real gems. The oldest known decks of Tarot have been recently
reprinted, so I doubt there is much chance of our losing sight of modern
Tarot's roots.

4) While I don't find any direct historical evidence that the Tarot was
originally intended to depict the principles of the Sepher Yetzirah, I do
find ample evidence that it was *later* in Tarot's history that these
correspondences where drawn. Nonetheless, this Qabbalistic-origin theory has
become a part of the popular mythology of Tarot, the importance of which is
amply demonstrated by the fact that most of us have learned to use Tarot
based on these Hermetic-Qabbalistic correspondences. Jewish Kabbalists
flatly refute any correlation between Hebrew Kabbalah and the Tarot, and to
me, the modern Tarot's correspondences are clearly of the
Hermetic-Kabbalistic branch and not direct off the Hebrew root. So, even
accepting a Qabbalistic root, that root is from a fairly recent branch. I
would agree however, that Tarot has *become* Qabbal-ized. ;)

5) Further, there are many differing traditions of the correspondences
between Tarot and Qabbalah. I can reach behind me to my library and find at
least a dozen conflicting systems! Oddly enough, each claims to be the right
one, but in reality, each is only one of many interpretations. This is no
less true for Alchemical symbolism!

Personally, I cherish the opportunity of access to so very many different
perspectives on the world. While I hold and cultivate my own unique
perspective, I find it is often another's perspective which intiates my own
growth. So I say "right on!" to anybody who has the guts to put forth their
own interpretation...I think it simply adds to our choices, whether we find
the options presented to be to our personal liking or not.

We are, after all, always brought back to the main point, which is the making
up of our own minds for ourselves.

Best to you,
:) Rawn Clark
26 July 96

Subject: 1432 Piaget on The Work
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 01:01:32 GMT
From: Lewis Goudy

The following passage seems, well, canonical:

Knowledge is not a copy of reality. To know an object, to know
an event, is not simply to look at it and make a mental copy, or
image, of it. To know an object is to act on it. To know is modify,
to transform the object, and to understand the process of this
transformation, and as a consequence to understand the way the
object is constructed. An operation is thus the essence of
knowledge; it is an interiorized action which modifies the object
of knowledge.

I have this as a third-hand quote:

J. S. Wiggins, et al. The Psychology of Personality
Addison-Wesley 1971 p.527

quoting from

F. G. Jennings, "Jean Piaget: notes on learning" Saturday Review May
20,1967

quoting from

(I'm asking you.)

The content suggests a (prospective?) reconciliation of the
Scientific and Hermetic views of nature--or points up the
artificiality of distinguishing them.

Lewis R. Goudy lrgoudy@usa.pipeline.com
Ignorant Pilgrim & Nervous Newbie

Subject: 1433 Alchemical Tarot deck
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 18:16:01 -0700
From: Dennis William Hauck

> From: Pat Zalewski
>
> >From: Dennis William Hauck
> >
> >Rosemary Eileen Guiley has just published an interesting Tarot Deck and
> >accompanying book THE ALCHEMICAL TAROT which does an excellent job of
> >connecting the archetypal symbolism of the two hermetic arts. It seems
> >that much of the Tarot symbolism is based on the processes of alchemy.
> >The book/card set is published by Thorsens, an imprint of HarperCollins.
>
> Could you post her alchemical associations to the trumps?

The following is a very brief description of her interpretation of the
Trumps:

0 FOOL: neophyte alchemist; prima materia.
1 MAGICIAN: does not represent an alchemical process because he is
Hermes/Mercury - the goal and exalted matter of the Work.
2 HIGH PRIESTESS: represents processes of dissolution, ie., solution and
separation. Archetypal Luna. Marks beginning of dissolution.
3 EMPRESS: the Alchemical Vessel of Body (Soul) in which the process of
dissolution (especially, solution or the confrontation of ego with
the unconscious) takes place.
4 EMPEROR: the Alchemical Vessel of Mind (Spirit) in which the process
of dissolution (especially, separation or the use of critical faculties
to discard ego illusion) takes place.
5 HIEROPHANT: Masculine counterpart to HIGH PRIESTESS. Archetypal Sol.
Marks the end of the dissolution process.
6 THE LOVERS: Recombination; spiritual conjunction.
7 THE CHARIOT: Driver is progeny of THE LOVERS heated by energy of Sun
and rises into the heavens; represents the process of sublimation.
8 JUSTICE: First of the feminine powers confronted by the Charioteer.
Three pillars of the Tree of Life. Process of disposition. Weighing of
Fire and Water elements; birth.
9 THE HERMIT: Turning inward to raise consciousness; process of
exhaltation.
10 WHEEL OF FORTUNE: Represents an overview of the whole process; the
Ouroboros; the fixed changing into the volatile.
11 STRENGTH: the Green Lion; process of fermentation; higher Life Force.
12 THE HANGED MAN: Crucified serpent of Mercury; calcination.
13 DEATH: nigredo; mortification; putrefaction; final death of ego.
14 TEMPERANCE: nurturing aspect of feminien powers; Mary the Jewess;
distillation; five petalled rose.
15 THE DEVIL: imprisonment in matter; coagulation; Hermaphroditus.
16 THE TOWER: the athanor; higher order of dissolution.
17 THE STAR: purification; seven steps of process.
18 THE MOON: albedo; the White Stone.
19 THE SUN: citrinatis; second or greater conjunction of the heiros
gamos; multiplication and projection processes.
20 JUDGMENT: the White Stone slowly turns into the Red Stone; healing
and transmutation; resurrection.
21 THE WORLD: the Red Stone manifests; Anima Mundi; union of the Above
and the Below.

Each card has appropriate alchemical symbolism illustrating the above
ideas. One of her goals is to prove that the Tarot is alchemical (at
least Neoplatonic in origin) instead of Christian, and I think she does
a good job of demonstrating her case.

Subject: 1434 Pentadodecahedron as sigil?
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 02:37:28 GMT
From: Lewis Goudy

The pentadodecahedron is the twelve-sided solid whose faces
are regular pentagons. Consider a "hemisphere" from same, i.e.
a flower-like affair whose center and five petals are identical
pentagons. Imagine that the edges which join these six pentagons
are hinged and that these hinges each possess some agency that
permits them to articulate themselves independently (but subject
to the constraints they impose on each other by virtue of their
positions). So the flower can open like a daisy or close like a
tulip, or even bend over backwards into an anti-tulip, but not
continue closing up beyond tuliphood (i.e. no self-intersections).

Now suppose it is planar (in daisy mode). It looks very much like
a regular pentagon, except there have been some rather small
bites taken out of it. Suppose in this conformation the agencies
responsible for articulation can agree to relinquish their autonomy
so that the daisy becomes rigid. In this condition, missing wedges
notwithstanding, it can serve as a single pentagon and so as an
element (face) in a "metaflower", i.e. a higher order hemisphere.

Suppose this metaflower itself possesses the aforesaid qualities
possessed by its elements, so that as a metadaisy it in turn can
serve as a single pentagon in a meta-metaflower. And so forth
above ad infinitum (flowers prefixed with k "meta's" for each
positive integer k). And likewise below: imagine the pentagons
that we started with are not atomic but are themselves composite
in the same manner, and likewise their constituent pentagons, and
so forth ad infinitessimum.

Now imagine not just such a hemisphere, but two such conjoined,
i.e. the solid figure mentioned in the subject of this post (albeit
with a bit of internal structure ). This self-similar infinitely
ramified geometry of articulation has some properties that seem
to render it naturally emblematic of a universe (or a person).
It can enclose one region of space or many. It appears free at
the local level but is subject to emergent constraints which are
not revealed except from privileged perspectives. It can manifest
infinite diversity of form yet possesses forbidden states and so
cannot fairly be styled chaos. It possesses a distinguished state
of plenary order or sublime unity. And so forth.

I know this forum possesses deep reserves of historicism and
insight. I am not schooled in your tradition. I would like to know
if anything I have written here resonates with it.

Lewis R. Goudy lrgoudy@usa.pipeline.com

Subject: 1435 Enochian Apocalypse/John Dee forum
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 96 07:56 BST-1
From: Graham Nickells

Where is the John Dee forum?

Graham Nickells

-----------------------------------

I will reply here.

You can subscribe the John Dee E-mail discussion group by sending an E-mail (from theaddress you wish to subscribe) to:

JOHN_DEE-Request@fre.fsu.umd.edu

with the word "Subscribe" in the body of the message.

The John Dee discussion group is not particularly active, and there are only a few messages each month.

With best wishes,

Adam McLean

Subject: 1436 Mosquito bites
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 08:46:28 -0400
From: J.F. Ruther

I am looking for a prescription for something against mosquito bites. My wife
and my daughter always react very allergically to mosquito bites, they get
really great swollen bumps which are itching like hell. One time my daughter
got twelve bites around her eye and the face was swollen so one eye was
swollen closed for over two days. Myself and my son just get little spots
which do not itch very much.
Is there a alchemical/spagyrical prescription to either desensitize against
the allergical reaction or to do something in prevention against the bites.
Maybe also after the byte happened?
It must have something to do with the blood and the sweath of the person.
Perhaps there is something out of the animal kingdom, to be prepared out of
mosquitos?

Yours....

J.R.

Subject: 1437 Piaget on The Work
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 08:41:01 -0500 (CDT)
From: cbr

Lewis Goudy wrote (quoting, I believe, Piaget):
> Knowledge is not a copy of reality. To know an object, to know
> an event, is not simply to look at it and make a mental copy, or
> image, of it. To know an object is to act on it. To know is modify,
> to transform the object, and to understand the process of this
> transformation, and as a consequence to understand the way the
> object is constructed. An operation is thus the essence of
> knowledge; it is an interiorized action which modifies the object
> of knowledge.

Goudy suggests
> The content suggests a (prospective?) reconciliation of the
> Scientific and Hermetic views of nature--or points up the
> artificiality of distinguishing them.

The analogy seems apt, and brings up a point of theory. Many of the
people who apparently do work in alchemy and post to this list as well
assume a strict dualism; that spirit and matter are in practice (?) and
in point of fact (not just conceptually) separable. And on the literal
level at least (and I must confess that I am not well read beyond such an
understanding) much of alchemical writing seems to assume such a
disjunction. However, the theory underlying understanding such as
expressed above (Piaget and others in psychology, phenomenologists and
others in philosophy) belies a commitment to a dualistic world; the
unifying structure between what is derivatively representational
knowledge and the object of that knowledge is variously conceived as the
structures of human understanding itself, or humanity's native capcity to
disclose its world at all, so that our embodiment is fundamental, not
only to our empirical relation to the world, but to abstract forms of
knowledge at all.

How centrally do the various respondants to this list conceive dualism?
How important is it to imagine the great work as one of somehow
liberating spirit from matter? How much is it a construction of the
psychological interpreters (Jung et al) to take such references as
allegorical?

Regards, Chris

Subject: 1438 Ayurvedic Alchemy
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 12:54:14 -0400
From: Russ House

Excerpts of the original message:

>From: A'yin Da'ath
>I just got a copy of the ...Of the Jungle Catalog today, and noticed mention
>of 'Ayurvedic Alchemists' when discussing some plants.
>They're Indian, are they not? Is their alchemy different from the Western
>'hermetic' tradition? Is it different from the Eastern, Chinese tradition?
>Exactly how does it fit in, and also what connection does it have with botany?

I will respond, even though this topic is one where I have *very* limited
information and no background in the practice. [Since when do we have to be
knowledgeable to offer opinions? ;-) ]

I consider Ayurvedic alchemy as quite different from most of the so-called
Hermetic tradition of Western Alchemy. It is possible that there are some
common roots in antiquity, and hopefully some other forum members can
address this issue. I know of at least one member who has considerable
practical experience in both traditions. (Hint)

I suspect that Paracelsus was influenced by Ayurveda, since I see some
similarities in the formulas, although the methods of working are different.

Frater Albertus exposed his students to the 'tri-dosha' theories, gem
therapies, and color therapies of Ayurvedic tradition, though I doubt that
any of the lab practice incorporated these ideas.

Some of the books that may be of value:

"The Yoga of Herbs" ISBN 0941-524248, Dr, David Frawley, Dr. Vasant Lad,
Lotus Press. -- Quote: "Rasa preparations. These are special Ayurvedic
alchemical preparations using humanized forms of mercury, sulphur, and other
metals. Called rasa preparations, they are important in Rasayan or
rejuvenation therapy, and have a powerful action on the nervous system.
Other special mineral and metal preparations are used (often in the form of
specially incenerated ashes or bhasma, which renders them non-toxic to the
body.) There are combined with herbs according to the same science of
energetics.

"Ayurvedic Medicine" by Birgit Heyn, Thorsons Publ. Group, UK, ISBN
0-7225-1417-4.

"Ayurveda, The Science of Self-Healing" by Dr. Vasant Lad, Lotus Press, ISBN
0-914955-00-4. A very good overview, with many practical ideas.

The rest of these were published in India (but in English), and may be
harder to come by:

"Rasa Jala Nidhi" or Ocean if Indian Chemistry, Medicine and Alchemy", in 5
volumes, by Bhudeb Mookerjee. Publisher: Srigokul Mudranalaya, K. 37/120,
Gopal Mandir Lane, VARANASI-221001, India. Lots of Ayurvedia alchemy, with
formulas.
Quote:
"Making of Gold: Iron, very finely pwwdered, is to be mixed with the juice
of kanya, and burnt very carefully for three times, by means of putapaka.
The powder will thus turn yellowish-red. Again, powdered makshika is to be
mixed with rock salt and some sour juice, and subjected to putapaka for
three times. These two kinds of powders are to be mixed together in equal
quantities. To these will have to be added powders of silver and copper,
each equal in quantity to each of the above mentioned powders, so that the
amalgam contains an equal quantity of the four ingerdients, viz, iron,
makshika, silver and copper. All of these arte to be heated together with
a little lead being put in the crucible, every now and then, so long as the
heating continues. The heat will have to be applied so long as the silver
does not dusappear altogether -- nay, up to a little while after that. The
product is a yellow metal containing gold 6/16 parts fine. Add to this,
gold 10/16 part fine, the product being gold of an excellent quality."
"A Handbook of Ayurveda" by Bhagwan Dash and Manfred Junius", 1987,Naurang
Rai, New Delhi. Junius is considered a master of Western Alchemy (his
Handbook of Plant Alchemy is one of the finest practical books), in addition
to his long study of Ayurveda, Indian music, etc. Despite this, there is
not much insight as to any common origins of Western/Ayurvedic traditions.

The following are more for reference, and are not introductory.

"Materia Medica of Indo-Tibetan Medicine", Vaidya Bhagwan Dash, 1987,
ISBN-81-85132-00-3.
"Madhava Nidana -- Ayurvedic System of Pathology" by K.R.L. Gupta, Sri
Satguru Publ., ISBN 81-7030-130-0.

"Ayurvedic Materia Medica", by H.V. Savnur, Sri Satguru Publ, 1988.

"Diagnosis and Treatment of Diseases in Ayurveda" by Dash Kashyap, Concept
Publ. Co, New Delhi, 1984.

Materia Medica of Ayurveda, in 5 Volumes, by Bhagwan Dash, Lalitesh Kashyap,
Naurang Rai, Publ., 1987

Regards,

Russ House
alchemy@mcs.com
====================================
--
The Philosophers of Nature
alchemy@mcs.com
http://www.mcs.net/~alchemy

Subject: 1439 Mosquito bites
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 12:14:36 -0700
From: alyssa

Try Deep Woods "OFF" to keep bugs away.
For bites--baking soda and water or try bleach

Cheers
A Medieval Archaeologist

Subject: 1440 Ayurvedic Alchemy
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 96 21:07 BST-1
From: Graham Nickells

I am not an expert, but I have found a few references in popular books on
Ayurveda that may help.

I cannot rely on the veracity, but here goes.

One of the plants you saw mentioned may have been the famous SOMA plant,
glorified in the 9th Mandala of Rig Veda. The 9th Mandala is all about
the Moon, and is possibly equivalent to Yesod in the Cabalistic system.
Several plants have been mooted as the probable source, but AFAIK, have
not been positively identified. The harvesting process is ritualised, and
depends on the phase of the moon, etc, assuming one can find the plant.
Soma produces immortality.

'RASAYANA'
Skt., Rejuvenation, literally 'the path of juice', a process of
replenishment of the quality and the quantity of the body's fluids.
Ageing means loss of juice; just as old leaves dry out.

Rasayanas are preparations used to promote Ojas, a highly refined
substance produced within the body, and derived principally thru sexual
abstinence, in other words, semen. Ojas is essential for physical, mental
and spiritual health.

Rasayanas are also used to produce AMRTA, the nectar of immortality.

'Tantric alchemy was founded on attempts to convert mercury, which is
esoterically the semen of Shiva, the god of transformation and death,
into amrta.'

Robert E Svoboda, 'Ayurveda, Life, Health and Longevity', Arkana books,
ISBN 0-14-019322-7

Not so detailed on the philosophical front, but with a good summary of
the Sankhya philosophy, essential to any understanding of the subject is:

'Ayurveda, Science of Self-Healing' Dr Vasant Lad, Lotus Press, ISBN
0-914955-00-4

There are many recipes for rasayanas that include mercury, but the
likelihood of anything easily available in 'Ayurvedic' medicine is
extremely unlikely to be 'alchemic', let alone include the metal.

BTW, Ayurveda is founded on the Sankhya Yoga system of knowledge based on
the hierarchies and structure of the universe reflected within man,
particularly the four elements plus spirit. Any imbalances in these
elements manifest as disease.

Graham Nickells

Subject: 1441 Mosquito bites
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 96 08:19 NZST
From: Pat Zalewski

>From: J.F. Ruther

>Is there a alchemical/spagyrical prescription to either desensitize against
>the allergical reaction or to do something in prevention against the bites.
>Maybe also after the byte happened?
>It must have something to do with the blood and the sweath of the person.
>Perhaps there is something out of the animal kingdom, to be prepared out of
>mosquitos?
>J.R.

I had a friend who had the same problem when we were in New Guinea. Try
taking homeopathic Ledum.

Pat zalewski

Subject: 1442 Mosquito bites
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 23:04:37 +0200 (MET DST)
From: douwe

>Is there a alchemical/spagyrical prescription to either desensitize against
>the allergical reaction or to do something in prevention against the bites.
>Maybe also after the byte happened?

Maybe it is a idea to look for a mosquito-net for them, they are excellent
things, because the best thing is not being bitten at all of course.
Further: the fact that they get stronger reactions to the bites has to do
with the female hormone...

For taking the itch away... make a good amount of some sal-ammoniac from
lemon-melissa (it shouldn't be hard, because it is a cheap herb, so you can do
lots at once). Mix it with a tiny part of its distilled oils and mix this
with its alcoholic part (it is necessary to use the least part of its oil,
because if you use too much, then this excellent medicine will be too potent
because it is automatically absorbed by the skin, so you might overdose on
it a bit if you use it a lot.)
You use it by putting a small amount of it on every bite.. the bite will,
give a sting, stop to itch, and disappear soon.

To keep the mosquitos away, you may use a bigger amount of oil, a tiny bit
of the sal-armenak and some alcohol... this will work alright as a repellent.
Still I think a mosquito net is the answer to the problem though.

For quick release without having all of this prepared, use some sal ammoniac
from any astringent herb, mix it with some cologne, or alcohol, and put it
on the bite... this would do some good too.

Well just in case you don't have any of these things at hand, then just get
some sal-ammoniac from the shop, and put a small amount on the bites with a
cotton ball.

Good luck...

douwe.
darus@xs4all.nl
Sapientae apex, desperatio de rebus mundi.

Subject: 1443 Piaget on The Work/Dualism
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 17:40:26 -0400
From: Clinton R. Armitage
Subject: Piaget on The Work

>
>How centrally do the various respondants to this list conceive dualism?
>How important is it to imagine the great work as one of somehow
>liberating spirit from matter? How much is it a construction of the
>psychological interpreters (Jung et al) to take such references as
>allegorical?
>
>Regards, Chris

My understanding is that the essence of Alchemy is:

First, the recognition that all of existence consists of polarities and that
it is this duality which keeps the universe in motion and is responsible for
the continuing differentiation transpiring in what we conceive to be the
material world.

Secondly, progress through " the great or greater work" consists of the
reconciliation of these polarities by the individual alchemist as they come
into view. As the Alchemist becomes free of the attraction or repulsion of
each polarity he/she experiences an expansion of consciousness- his/her
individual universe has expanded. In time, the duality no longer exists in
his/her, now androgynous, universe. The "as above, so below" has become as
one, the separation of spirit and matter no longer exists- matter is spirit,
spirit is matter. The wedding of the conscious and unconscious, the higher
and the lower mind, takes place and with it the availability of universal mind.

The Key is Love. Love is recognized as the universal solvent that dissolves
all polarities. The Alchemist confronts the darker side of his/her universe
with the shield of Love to protect him/her and eventually emerges into the
light through the sword of intellect- understanding.

Is there a parallel universe where Hate instead of Love is the universal
solvent? Some call it Hell.

Subject: 1444 Pentadodecahedron as sigil?
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 96 19:06 EDT
From: Josh Norton

>From: Lewis Goudy
>
>The pentadodecahedron is the twelve-sided solid whose faces
>are regular pentagons. Consider a "hemisphere" from same, i.e.
>a flower-like affair whose center and five petals are identical
>pentagons.
>[snip]
>This self-similar infinitely
>ramified geometry of articulation has some properties that seem
>to render it naturally emblematic of a universe (or a person).
>[snip]
>I know this forum possesses deep reserves of historicism and
>insight. I am not schooled in your tradition. I would like to know
>if anything I have written here resonates with it.

It's not alchemical, but a cabalist magician once had some ideas that seem
to parallel yours. Charles Stansfield Jones (aka Frater Achad) described
them in his book 'The Anatomy of the Body of God'.

In particular, Jones pointed out that if the cabalistic "Tree of Life"
diagram is treated as a solid body with planar faces, then the bases of
twenty such bodies can be fit together so as to leave no empty space. This
done, the Kethers (i.e., the topmost points) of these bodies would would be
so positioned as to form the apices of a pentadodecahedron.

I haven't the faintest idea what it means, but it seemed so nifty that it
ought to mean 'something'.

Regards,
Josh

Subject: 1445 Mosquito bites
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 19:51:53 -0500
From: Michael Christopher Shaffer

Try having them drink lemon water. One half lemon in a glass of water
3 times per day.

Subject: 1446 Ayurvedic Alchemy, Rasayana, etc.
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 00:06:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: Steve Feite

Dear "A'yin Da'ath":

>I just got a copy of the ...Of the Jungle Catalog today, and noticed mention
>of 'Ayurvedic Alchemists' when discussing some plants. I'm curious about
>exactly what they mean by this, and was curious to see if anyone has any
>further information about this topic.

Well, that is certainly a question that could take longer than a casual
reply, but here goes. First, Indian Alchemy, or Rasayana first appeared
in printed (read: written down on palm leaves that we have found) from
over 1500 years ago. At the highlight of the written dispersal of
Alchemical and Siddha Medicine texts, the Muslims began invading
India--circa the 9th century A.D. Interestingly it is only after this
knowledge began to circulate into western Europe--the 1400's--that
Alchemy as we know it in the west "appears". The filter placed on our
historical perceptions by archaeologists exploring the then mysterious
and mystical Egypt, around the end of the last century--and the
suppositions made by occultists since--that Alchemy originated there, in
Egypt, is perhaps not in fact the truth. Alchemy certainly existed long
before even the 9th century--references are made to Alchemical and
medical usage of Mercury in the earliest Ayurvedic 'Samhitas' and dating
well back before Christ (or Gautama for that matter). Recent excavations
of the Indus valley civilization(s) has uncovered talismans and bracelets
of solidified Mercury. In fact, these same items are still made today in
"modern" India, and by French Alchemists living in India. To say that
Alchemy, in this context, is *truly* a megalithic survival--a remant of
megalithic science, if you will--is not as far fetched as it might seem.

Secondly, this science, existing for so long, appears to have woven
itself into the very fabric of ancient Indian society. Actually to say it
has one source would be a misstatement. It appears in Ayurveda, yes. But
it also comes from Siddha medicine. It also appears in Jyotish (Skt.:the
Science of Light or Hindu Astrology).

> Is their alchemy different from the Western 'hermetic' tradition? Is
> it different from the Eastern, Chinese tradition? Exactly how does it
> fit in, and also what connection does it have with botany?

Actually it is very similar to the western--startlingly so. It is
important to point out that the assertions made by some that Paracelsus
had been to the trans-Himalayan/Indian region may be correct.
Paracelsus' medical system has remarkable parallels not only with
Ayurvedic humoural (Skt: Dosha) theory but also in his use of metals, his
use of planetary talismans and his entire Microcosm-Macrocosm theme(s).

Regarding Chinese Alchemy it is important to point out that Chinese
Acupuncture originated in India as "Marma Chikitsa" the "gold needle"
therapy. It was originally developed from the martial arts there, the
so-called "Dhanur Veda" (lit.: "Science of War"). With this in mind it is
easier to see where Chinese alchemy most probably came from. Chinese
Geomancy, Feng Shui, contains elements of Indian Alchemy in their usage
of Mercury and Arsenic--a further clue.

The word "Rasa" means literally "essence". Its other meaning is
"Mercury". Thus "Rasayana", the term oft applied to describe Indian
Alchemy, means "the Path of Mercury" or "the Path of the Essence". Rasa
also has other meanings in the Ayurvedic system too. In the description
of the 7 tissues (Skt.: Sapta-dhatu, lit: the "seven spaces") of the
human body and their interelation Rasa is 'first'. It is analogous to
lymph in the physiology.

My article on Mercury and Tantric Alchemy on the Alchemy Web site may
also be of help.

Yours in the Great Work,

S.A. Feite

Subject: 1447 Piaget on The Work/Dualism
From: "John Chas Webb"
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 01:43:48 -1000

Response to Post # 1437 regarding spirit/matter dualism which asked
(edited):
| How centrally do the various respondants to this list conceive dualism?
| How important is it to imagine the great work as one of somehow
| liberating spirit from matter? How much is it a construction of the
| psychological interpreters (Jung et al) to take such references as
| allegorical?
**********************************************************************

My own experience has convinced me of the following:
1) Spirit is without form, it is a raw power which is "concentrated" into
forms by that aspect of selves which is represented by Hermes (the
magician/mercury/the focusing agent). It does not distinguish between
"good" or "evil", it is fundaMENTALLY a ceative power which MUST be
directed.
2) Soul is an "individualized spark" of spirit which has been flavoured
with particular attributes. The foremost of these attributes is
consciousness with an ability to express itself into form. Soul operates
both inside and outside of the boundaries of space and time.
3) "Form" is the "clothing" of the soul. A form can be an etheric form
(eg. a "ghost" or "angel") or it can be a dense form (eg. a human being or
etc., etc.). Form is temporal.

These three aspects represent the trinity and also are the basis for
Hermes' (the magician) title as the "Thrice-Greatest" s he mastered the
blending and reblending of spirit, soul and form.

Part of the reason why there is duality in alchemical texts is that some
alchemists are utilizing powers to come into expression (coagulation) and
others are "leaving" (diSOLVEing). We are
unable to comprehend "spirit" because it has no attributes other than
POWER. (The mind does not operate without first feeding it descriptions.)
The mind can NEVER get to "spirit", the best that the mind can do is to
remotely ponder the soul.

Depending upon how we have configured our individual consciousness we can
experience all matter as "divinized" or not. It is up to you how you want
to set it up! The "original" design was intended to have "forms" as the
vehicles of expression for individual souls (coagulation). However, if an
individual soul has surrendered its power to form and the individual
consciousness has "forgotten" its spiritual foundation then alchemy
presents itself as a path
which enables the practitioner to re-access the inner gold (the soul) and
to extract it from the density (lead) of matter (disolution). The mastery
of alchemy produces the Hermes archetype, which is an individual who is
virtually unencumbered, who can manifest objects at will and who can enter
into or leave form according to his or her will. He operates as a living
soul and exists in perfect balance as a commander of spirit and master of
forms. He translates spirit (above) into matter (form/below) and can
reverse this process at will by transmuting his form back into the
nothingness from which it issued. He makes REAL what many of us can only
imagine (image, mage, magus, magic, magician, imagination).

If your mind cannot accept this you must enter into the process of
disolution so you can access the power to re-form the mind (mercury).
Otherwise you remain "eternally" attached to form and die a hundred million
deaths in the "underworld" of your own making.

The Great Art is designed to restore one's status as an awakened soul who
is free to travel to the farthest reaches of all of the universes and
parallel realities. ("My Father's house has many mansions" - Christ)

Cowabunga!
John Charles Webb
johnboy@aloha.net

Subject: 1448 Julius de Evola and C.G. Jung
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 09:43:54 -0400
From: Jeffrey

>I am new to this list, and study of alchemy. I have studied jung, among
>others as a philosopher however, and have managed to remain
>ignorant of the collaboration to which you point above. would you be
>able to direct me to some of jung's works in which this is evident?
> I would mightily appreciate the enlightenment.

Jung's so-called collaboration with the Nazis is anything but a proven fact
and remains controversial even in the Jungian world. There is no doubt that
he was politically naive, but much of his "co-operation" with the Nazis was
to help the Jewish members of the psychoanalytical society in Germany. He
also tried to free Freud from Vienna in 1939 but Freud refused his help.

There were no statements issued to help the Nazis, though they did use his
concept of the racial unconscious for obvious purposes. I studied with
several men who were Jung's clients during the war, one of whom was Jewish.

He assured me that Jung was no Nazis and was never anti-semitic. As for
judging an adept, I don't believe a person can be an adept and be, say a
mass-murderer. But one must take great care in judging ethically any other
individual, let alone one who operates in a different reality from the normal
one. I would refer you to the 18 sutra of the Koran.

Jeff

Subject: 1449 Ayurvedic Alchemy, Rasayana, etc.
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 12:11:23 -0500
From: A'yin Da'ath

Thanks for all the responses. Unfortunately (or not, as the case may be),
they also have raised a few more questions-

Would it then be safe to say that alchemy began as an Aryan (by Aryan, I do
not mean Hitler's super-race and all that, but rather the 'ethnic' group
which originated in Northern India, and moved westwards later on in
successive waves (the Celts, the Goths and others) idea or concept?

Secondly, since the article mentioned and specifically deals with plants
(organic substances), and alchemy the western tradition talks mostly of
inorganic materials, mercury, sulphur, salt, etc., could we then hypothesize
that alchemy is a uniting of organic with inorganic substances, fusing into
a... well, we're not quite sure what?

Thanks for all the substantial responses again.

ayindaath@worldnet.att.net

Subject: 1450 Ayurvedic Alchemy
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 12:28:14 -0500

From: A'yin Da'ath

>From: Graham Nickells

>One of the plants you saw mentioned may have been the famous SOMA plant,
>glorified in the 9th Mandala of Rig Veda. The 9th Mandala is all about
>the Moon, and is possibly equivalent to Yesod in the Cabalistic system.
>Several plants have been mooted as the probable source, but AFAIK, have
>not been positively identified. The harvesting process is ritualised, and
>depends on the phase of the moon, etc, assuming one can find the plant.
>Soma produces immortality.

Yes, I've heard of that idea, though only vaguely. From all that I know, the
soma was possibly opium, or possibly the 'Fly Agraric' mushroom. I doubt
we'll ever get the exact plant, or formula for the production of the plant.

>'RASAYANA'
>Skt., Rejuvenation, literally 'the path of juice', a process of
>replenishment of the quality and the quantity of the body's fluids.
>Ageing means loss of juice; just as old leaves dry out.
>
>Rasayanas are preparations used to promote Ojas, a highly refined
>substance produced within the body, and derived principally thru sexual
>abstinence, in other words, semen. Ojas is essential for physical, mental
>and spiritual health.

This is tantra, is it not? According to tantric sexuality, part of the
process you can perform (and I have done so with reasonable success) is
halting ejaculation. The texts, if I remember correctly (my memory isn't
very good and I don't have them on me at the moment) say that by doing this
the semen travels to the brain, somehow altering it.
Now as far as this goes, I've heard multiple possibilities for the
brain change. One was that it causes a psychedelic session (again, please,
PLEASE do not yell and kick and scream because I'm bringing this up again. I
do not hold with this theory anyways). A second was that it is more...
occult(?)... in it's mannerisms, that is, it causes the sexual energy
normally released at orgasm to instead be transferred and held in the head,
or released via one or both of the two chakras there, the ajna or sahasrara
(and possibly the visuhddi). The last is more scientific in explanation, and
the one that I am most inclined to agree with. Simply, the body feels
cheated in a sense because the entire sexual act was for nothing (no child
will be produced). So it reacts by releasing more of the sexually charged
hormones and other biochemicals in greater amounts. So we have brain change,
of a sort, occuring because we have inordinate amounts of hormones flowing
through the blood.

Now, another practice that I know of and have tried is the repeated failure
to achieve orgasm. If prolonged over a period of days, this can cause a
little, at least, brain change. What happens is that the practioner has sex
at least once daily, but instead of having an orgasm, stops right before
(tricky, but possible). This is done multiple times in one night, or slowly
over the course of two weeks.
From my own experiences with this, all I felt after the one night
stand trial was a greater feeling of vivacity, and orgasm was more potent
when it finally came (no pun intended). This entire idea is similar to what
happens with prolonged celibacy (according to most idealists, the celibacy
of 'holy men and women' is done in order to achieve devotion towards god
alone, without feeling of ties towards a family. I would disagree, that in
fact the prolonged celibacy somehow affects the mind as well because of the
body's feeling of failure to complete evolutionary goals).

Any commentary, rebuttal, etc. is entirely wonderful, provided it maintains
a status of decorum.

ayindaath@worldnet.att.net