Inner alchemy archives - Kabbalah

Back to alchemy forum page . Back to Inner alchemy archive.

From: Eric Friedman
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 1997

Mr Leake,

I must concede that I generalised too much in my first statement,
and probably got just a bit too specific concerning Qabalistic texts, at
least in terms which implied that they were specifically quoted as such.
Nevertheless, to say that "comparisons between Qabala and Alchemy
are tenuous (not to mention modern)"
is extremely odd in light of such works as Fludd's "Mosaical Philosophy",
in which he makes direct reference to the Bahir, one of the oldest
Qabalistic works, while in the process of making direct correlations
between Qabalistic, Hermetic, and Alchemical principles. There is, of
course, also the weight given by Flammel to Qabala concerning the
"Hieroglyphical Figures". And by no means can one dismiss the
"naught-but" Qabalistic symbols and Names appearing in so many Alchemical
diagrams, illustrations, frontispieces, etc. And this is but to state
what should be obvious. Not comparisons, but direct associations between
Qabala & Alchemy are neither tenuous nor modern. The Qabala had a major
impact on Alchemical writings in the late Middle Ages & early Renaissance
(at the latest), and the Qabala itself was influenced much earlier by
Alchemical concepts (just read Nachmanides' commentary on the first
chapter of Genesis to witness this).

As for Waite's interpretations of the Zohar, his insights are
indeed profoundly close to the mark, and, again, one just needs to read
his "Pictorial Key to the Tarot" to realise that they are his dominant
frame of reference for his interpretation of the "Doctrine behind the
Veil" (as he called it). I know many who are annoyed to admit how well he
understood the Zohar, but even more annoyed that his
interpretations/revelations are dismissed in favor of manipulations.

Finally, as for Tantrism, I must once again concede that I am
only able to generalise, based on second-hand knowledge from a good
friend who is, in my personal, human, perhaps biased belief, reliable
when he tells me that Tantric Union and "Zoharic" (more "Lurianic",
actually) Yichudim have much in common.

My expertise is in the non-"Zoharic/Lurianic" tradition, primarily
drawing on Sefer Yetzirah & Avraham Abulafia "through" the works of his
student, R. Joseph Gikatalia. Concerning these works, mentioned in my
previous message (Shaarei Orah, Ginat Egoz), I can do little more than
assure you that they exerted a profound influence on the writings of
others. What little more I can do is say that Johann Reuchlin used
"Portae Lucis", the Latin translation of Shaarei Orah, to convince Pope
Leo X not to confiscate & burn all Jewish books, as he was being urged to
do by the Dominicans.

Eric Friedman

Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997
From: George Leake

>From: Eric Friedman
>Nevertheless, to say that "comparisons between Qabala and Alchemy
>are tenuous (not to mention modern)"
>is extremely odd in light of such works as Fludd's "Mosaical Philosophy",
>in which he makes direct reference to the Bahir, one of the oldest
>Qabalistic works, while in the process of making direct correlations
>between Qabalistic, Hermetic, and Alchemical principles.

Certainly Fludd and to some extent Agrippa try to make such comparisons,
but when you get down to it these are efforts at synthesis based on the
principles of sympathetic magic, according to some parlance, "as above so
below" according to some others. The incorporation of Qabalism in Fludd and
elsewhere is minimal. Look at Agrippa for instance. He obviously
understands the system but keeps it at a distance. I see little fusing on a
theoretical basis between Qabala and Alchemy. And none on a practical basis
until centuries later

>There is, of
>course, also the weight given by Flammel to Qabala concerning the
>"Hieroglyphical Figures". And by no means can one dismiss the
>"naught-but" Qabalistic symbols and Names appearing in so many Alchemical
>diagrams, illustrations, frontispieces, etc. And this is but to state
>what should be obvious. Not comparisons, but direct associations between
>Qabala & Alchemy are neither tenuous nor modern. The Qabala had a major
>impact on Alchemical writings in the late Middle Ages & early Renaissance
>(at the latest), and the Qabala itself was influenced much earlier by
>Alchemical concepts (just read Nachmanides' commentary on the first
>chapter of Genesis to witness this).

These are generally overstated and based on writings of a few. Take a
fresh look at some of the source works. In Agrippa, for instance, Qabala is
miniscule in comparison to many other modes. Because a number of mystics
tried to use qabala in new way, namely to prove qabalistically that the
bible prophecizes the coming of Christ? You think this is a major
influence? Fie! More like a minor fancy of a handful of intellectuals--

>As for Waite's interpretations of the Zohar, his insights are
>indeed profoundly close to the mark, and, again, one just needs to read
>his "Pictorial Key to the Tarot" to realise that they are his dominant
>frame of reference for his interpretation of the "Doctrine behind the
>Veil" (as he called it).

I find this very amusing, knowing what three very different individuals
would say in response to this if they were here.

>I know many who are annoyed to admit how well he
>understood the Zohar,

I'm certainly not one of them. I can hardly care.

>but even more annoyed that his
>interpretations/revelations are dismissed in favor of manipulations.

Hard to say this would be the same crowd...

>Finally, as for Tantrism, I must once again concede that I am
>only able to generalise, based on second-hand knowledge from a good
>friend who is, in my personal, human, perhaps biased belief, reliable
>when he tells me that Tantric Union and "Zoharic" (more "Lurianic",
>actually) Yichudim have much in common.

I tried to get into specifics here, but I think these sorts of arguments
cannot withstand the critical light

>My expertise is in the non-"Zoharic/Lurianic" tradition, primarily
>drawing on Sefer Yetzirah & Avraham Abulafia "through" the works of his
>student, R. Joseph Gikatalia. Concerning these works, mentioned in my
>previous message (Shaarei Orah, Ginat Egoz), I can do little more than
>assure you that they exerted a profound influence on the writings of
>others.

I do know this well. Some Qabala scholars have suggested strongly to me
that Luria revolutionized Qabala--course that's all in the context of the
Jewish community--

> What little more I can do is say that Johann Reuchlin used
>"Portae Lucis", the Latin translation of Shaarei Orah, to convince Pope
>Leo X not to confiscate & burn all Jewish books, as he was being urged to
>do by the Dominicans.

I have no idea how or why this is relevant to the topic

George Leake

From: Eric C. Friedman
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997

I should not generalize.

When Evola states, concerning the "One the All", that:

"It is not a question...of a philosophical theory - a hypothosis
reducing everything to a single principle - but of an actual state
brought about by a certain suppression of the law of opposition between I
and not-I and between 'inside' and 'outside' (subjective/objective)...The
experience of this state is the secret of what the literature calls the
'Materia of the Work' or 'First Matter of the Wise'. Only from this
stateis it possible to 'extract' and 'shape', by 'ritual' and
'art'...everything that the tradition promises, in spiritual as well as
operative (i.e., 'magical') terms."

And;

"This 'all' has also been called Chaos ('our' Chaos) and
egg....because it contains the undifferentiated potentiality of every
development or generation: it sleeps in the depths of each being as a
sensed myth - to use Olympiodorus's expression, and it extends to the
chaotic multiplicity of scattered things and forms in space and time here
below."

These interpretations evoke certain qabalistic concepts which, when
relating to manifest reality, correspond to the sphere of Yesod
(Foundation) of the Tree of Life.

More specifically, the concept of "Chaos" in relation to manifest Matter,
specifically concerning the First Matter (which manifests in "Four Forms"
-Maimonides), is an influence of Yesod on the sphere of manifestation -
called Malchus" (Kingdom)- which is given the name "River" in Qabala,
derived from the One River in the Garden of Eden which branched off into
Four "Heads" of other rivers, i.e., the four Elements (Shaarei Orah,
Shaar Bes). In Jewish literature, this concept of the First Matter, as
Chaos, is discussed in many places, from the Sefer Yetzirah to
Maimonides' "Foundations of the Torah" to Nachmanides' commentary on
Genesis (both Maimonide & Nachmanides refer to the Greek term "Hyle" when
writing of this).

As a Divine attribute, this First Substance, containing the
potentialities and sustenance of/for ALL life is called the Living
Waters, and is a quality attached to the Living God, the word "Life"
("Chaim") being the essential associating point.

There is, of course, much more to go on with about this, I'm just
interested in the response to what I've stated so far first.

--Eric Friedman

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997
From: George Leake

>From: Eric C. Friedman
>When Evola states, concerning the "One the All", that:
>"It is not a question...of a philosophical theory - a hypothosis
>reducing everything to a single principle - but of an actual state
>brought about by a certain suppression of the law of opposition between I
>and not-I and between 'inside' and 'outside' (subjective/objective)...

This suppression of inner and outer then implies a sort of merging...what
I want to know is how would we know that this state is actually realized?
Can any of us claim enough perspective to grasp objective? In any case any
sort of merging of the two would simply be untenable. And here Evola leaves
us with no model.

>The experience of this state is the secret of what the literature calls the
>'Materia of the Work' or 'First Matter of the Wise'.

Typically cryptic, almost a cliche. Osiris references anyone? Which literature?

>Only from this state is it possible to 'extract' and 'shape', by 'ritual' and
>'art'...everything that the tradition promises, in spiritual as well as
>operative (i.e., 'magical') terms."

Again one wonders exactly about what he specifically means about "the
tradition". Especially someone like Evola.

I recall questioning claims on behalf of some 'tradition' before and being
taunted because I was not an initiate

>And;
>"This 'all' has also been called Chaos ('our' Chaos)

Which begs the question, who's this 'our' Evola presumes to speak for

and
>egg....because it contains the undifferentiated potentiality of every
>development or generation: it sleeps in the depths of each being as a
>sensed myth - to use Olympiodorus's expression, and it extends to the
>chaotic multiplicity of scattered things and forms in space and time here
>below."
>
>These interpretations evoke certain qabalistic concepts which, when
>relating to manifest reality, correspond to the sphere of Yesod
>(Foundation) of the Tree of Life.

That's not surprising since Cabala/Kabbalah/Qabbala has historically
been such an elastic term it can be made to fit anything from Hebrew
Letter/Number Mysticism to Anglo-Saxon Rune Magic as some sort of "link"
to the Pharoahs, thus a legitimatizing force, conferring "tradition" whether
these connections have historical veracity or not.

OTOH, if it works for you, go for it.

>More specifically, the concept of "Chaos" in relation to manifest Matter,
>specifically concerning the First Matter (which manifests in "Four Forms"
>-Maimonides), is an influence of Yesod on the sphere of manifestation -
>called Malchus" (Kingdom)- which is given the name "River" in Qabala,
>derived from the One River in the Garden of Eden which branched off into
>Four "Heads" of other rivers, i.e., the four Elements (Shaarei Orah,
>Shaar Bes). In Jewish literature, this concept of the First Matter, as
>Chaos, is discussed in many places, from the Sefer Yetzirah to
>Maimonides' "Foundations of the Torah" to Nachmanides' commentary on
>Genesis (both Maimonide & Nachmanides refer to the Greek term "Hyle" when
>writing of this).

In other words, you are connecting the concept of the alchemical Prima
Materia to this mythological First Matter, and thus to Yesod/Chaos?

George Leake

From: Bernard Bovasso
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997

> As a Divine attribute, this First Substance, containing the
> potentialities and sustenance of/for ALL life is called the Living
> Waters, and is a quality attached to the Living God, the word "Life"
> ("Chaim") being the essential associating point.

Eric:

It is (historically) significant that the notions of *protohyle* as prime
substance were taken seriously enough by the Melesian *physiologoi*
to in fact commence a first approach to a prose (rather than poeia)
definition of what today we call "science." In other words, no sooner
Thales declared that water (*hylos*) comprised the prime substance
than quick enough Anaximander proclaimed it as "boundless"
(*apieron*) but hardly substancial in the sense of elements.
This paved the way for Anaxagoras to note a universal Nous, or
World Mind, which had all the earmarks of *apieron* and, insofar
as Anaximenes prefferred air as the prime substance, drew in
tight its correlation to Mind (*nous* and *pneuma*). But this did
not impede Empedokles in his notion of Earth as the prime
substance and which was instrumental in the atomic theories of
Leukippos and Democritus. But then Herakleitos was more satisfied
with Fire as the prime substance.

In all cases the prime substance was held as *radix* explanation for all
phenomena. Such pre-Socratic speculation on the nature of nature (*physis*)
was embedded as a tradition in the evolution of Western Culture, on the way
brought to term in alchemy and final objectification in modern science.

Since much of this is overlapped in Qabalistic thought and had
first origin for the Ionian and Eleatic Greek thinkers through the
Pythagoreans, it has led me to believe there is some link between
Pythagorean through and that of ancient Judaism. But even more
provocative is the idea that such thought migrated from Northern Europe.

Bernard

From: Eric C. Friedman
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997

Bernard,

The First Substance of Qabala manifests differently at different
levels of the Tree of Life, "manifests" being the key word here, as the
manifestation is secondary to its Creation. Nachmanides, in his
commentary to the first verse of Genesis, spends alot of time discussing
the First Substances, of which he says there are two. To quote directly
from the translation I use (by Rabbi Charles B. Chavel; Shilo Publishing
House):

"Everything that exists under the sun or above was not
made from non-existence at the outset. Instead He brought forth
from total and absolute nothing a very thin substance
devoid of corporeality but having power of potency, fit to assume
form and to proceed from potentiality into reality. This was
the primary matter created by G-d; it is called by the Greeks
"hyly" (matter(. After the hyly, He did not create anything, but
He formed and made things with it, and from this hyly He
brought everything into existence and clothed the forms and
put them into a finished condition.

"Know that the Heavens and all that is in them consist of
one substance, and the earth and everything that is in it
consist of one substance. The Holy One, blessed be He,
created these two substances from nothing; they alone were
created, and everything else was constructed from them."

Now this is just the beginning (no pun intended) of a lengthy and
profound discourse on the "Chaotic and Void" nature of the earth.
"Chaos" and "Void" being these two substances (these English
words do not do justice to the concepts discussed, and aren't even
used in the translation; the original Hebrew being transliterated as
"tohu" & "bohu"). Of course, the "Spirit/Breath of God [which] hovered
on the face of the Deep" is explained, and it is here that Nachmanides
talks about the primal state of the Four Elements, and their derivation
from a First Point, Qabalistically called the "Stone of Foundation".

The order given in Sefer Yetzirah is:

"One is the Breath (Ruach) of the Living God...the Life of [All]
Worlds...and this is the Holy Spirit/Breath."

"Two: Wind from Spirit (Ruach from Ruach; "Wind", "Breath" &
"Spirit" being the same in Hebrew - alternatively - 'Breath from
Breath')....and one Breath is from them."

"Three: Water from Wind; He engraved and carved with it (Water)
Chaos & Void (Tohu & Bohu), Mud and Clay..."

"Four: Fire from Water..."

The Foundation of the Act of Creation is Breath, as everything came into
being when "God Said...etc." But the Substance of Formation is Water,
more specifically what is called "Philosophical Water", the purely fluid
and volatile Substance which was the only thing Created, and can be fixed
into any given form. That Fire ensues from Water indicates that the
Spiritual Principle of the Creative Will is not lost from the substance
in it's "Descent".

In terms of two substances, the possession of - or conscious
contact with - the Holy Ruach of Heaven, is that which gives the "Power"
(an abused word, as it is easily associated with abuse) to to Fix the
Volatile into any form, and/or to return a fixed form to a volatile
state, and then "re-fix" it in another form.

That'll do for now,

Eric Friedman

From: Bernard Bovasso
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997

> The order given in Sefer Yetzirah is:
>
> "One is the Breath (Ruach) of the Living God...the Life of [All]
> Worlds...and this is the Holy Spirit/Breath."
>
> "Two: Wind from Spirit (Ruach from Ruach; "Wind", "Breath" &
> "Spirit" being the same in Hebrew - alternatively - 'Breath from
> Breath')....and one Breath is from them."
>
> "Three: Water from Wind; He engraved and carved with it (Water)
> Chaos & Void (Tohu & Bohu), Mud and Clay..."
>
> "Four: Fire from Water..."
>
> The Foundation of the Act of Creation is Breath, as everything came into
> being when "God Said...etc." But the Substance of Formation is Water,
> more specifically what is called "Philosophical Water", the purely fluid
> and volatile Substance which was the only thing Created, and can be fixed
> into any given form. That Fire ensues from Water indicates that the
> Spiritual Principle of the Creative Will is not lost from the substance
> in it's "Descent".
>
> In terms of two substances, the possession of - or conscious
> contact with - the Holy Ruach of Heaven, is that which gives the "Power"
> (an abused word, as it is easily associated with abuse) to to Fix the
> Volatile into any form, and/or to return a fixed form to a volatile
> state, and then "re-fix" it in another form.

Dear Eric:

The ancient explications on the discourse of the four elements are
amazingly consistant. Herakleitos of Ephesos, for example, cites the
ever-lasting fire as the measure of all things. In his fragments he notes:

(20)"This world (*cosmos*), which is the same for all, no one of gods or men
has made; but it was ever, is now, and shall ever be an ever-lasting fire,
with measures of it kindling, and measures going out" (R.P. 35).

(21) "The transformations of Fire are, first of all, sea; and half of the sea
is earth, half whirlwind "(R.P. 35b)

(22) "All things are exchanges for Fire, and Fire for all things, even as
wares for gold and gold for wares" (R.P. 35).

(23) "It becomes liquid sea, and is measured by the same tale as before it
became earth"(R.P. 39).

(24)"Fire is want and surfeit (R.P. 36a).

(25)"Fire lives the death of air, and air lives the death of fire; water
lives the death of earth, earth that of water" (R.P. 37).

Sincerely,
Bernard

(BXBovasso)

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 97
From: MIKE DICKMAN

Bernard

I am very keen to lay my hands on a 'full' copy of the Herakleitan
fragments... Could you let me have references please?

For the moment my reply address is mike_dickman@msn.com

Thanks a million.
m

From: Eric C. Friedman
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997

Bernard;

What I find very interesting is the correspondence of the states
of matter in modern physics to all of this. When the old system of
qualities - Hot, Moist, Cold, Dry - are looked at from a slightly
different angle, where we see "Hot" & "Cold" as representing different
states of density, it can be seen that physics hasn't changed much at all
in their definitions of matter. Thus, going from the lightest to the most
dense, we have Fire = Energy (which is definitely a terrestrial substance
&/or manifestation); Air = Gases; Water = Liquids; & Earth = Solids.
These "modern" definitions are obviously synonymous with the older states
of matter which we call the Philosophical Elements.

As Air & Water are the most fluid of the "tangible" elements,
they are most often used as representations (at least - we can also see
them as the Ideal Source Substances) for the primal substance of
Terrestrial manifestation, where Earth itself is the final Fixation of
the fluid state (Fire being the substance of the "Heavens", which must
undergo a more profound transfiguration in order to be Fixed). This is,
of course, also paralleled in modern physics in the dichotomy between
Matter "vs." Energy.

Eric

P.S. As the Fluid Elements - and as the manifestly "Moist" elements of
our atmosphere - Air & Water are often said to be (as in Sefer Yetzirah)
the elements of the Firmament, while Above the Firmament is the "Fluid
Fire" (Higher Waters) of The Throne of Glory, and Below the Firmament is
the Fixation of all the Celestial Influences & Powers in the (Lower
Waters of) Earth. The Qabalistic process of Volatizing these Fixed Powers
and their assimilation into an individual's Soul & consciousness can
easily be approached as a process of Inner Alchemy.

Date: Thu, 1 May 1997
From: George Leake

>From: Eric C. Friedman
>P.S. As the Fluid Elements - and as the manifestly "Moist" elements of
>our atmosphere - Air & Water are often said to be (as in Sefer Yetzirah)
>the elements of the Firmament, while Above the Firmament is the "Fluid
>Fire" (Higher Waters) of The Throne of Glory, and Below the Firmament is
>the Fixation of all the Celestial Influences & Powers in the (Lower
>Waters of) Earth. The Qabalistic process of Volatizing these Fixed Powers
>and their assimilation into an individual's Soul & consciousness can
>easily be approached as a process of Inner Alchemy.

But there's not really a match between these two systems. Qabbala proposes
only three elements

From: Bernard Bovasso
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997

> What I find very interesting is the correspondence of the states
> of matter in modern physics to all of this. When the old system of
> qualities - Hot, Moist, Cold, Dry - are looked at from a slightly
> different angle, where we see "Hot" & "Cold" as representing different
> states of density, it can be seen that physics hasn't changed much at all
> in their definitions of matter.

Dear Eric,

No, conceptually and the standpoint of the conceptual *radix,* much is
retained except, perhaps, the mortal proportion and the human
relation to the senuous nature of the four elements and their dynamics.
This certainly is not lost in Qabala but I fear much of it has been
purged over the centuries from early Greek thought.

Bernard

From: Steve Kalec
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997

To George Leake,

Eric C. Friendman wrote:

> P.S. As the Fluid Elements - and as the manifestly "Moist" elements of
> our atmosphere - Air & Water are often said to be (as in Sefer Yetzirah)
> the elements of the Firmament, while Above the Firmament is the "Fluid
> Fire" (Higher Waters) of The Throne of Glory, and Below the Firmament is
> the Fixation of all the Celestial Influences & Powers in the (Lower
> Waters of) Earth. The Qabalistic process of Volatizing these Fixed Powers
> and their assimilation into an individual's Soul & consciousness can
> easily be approached as a process of Inner Alchemy.

I absolutely agree wholeheartedly all the way !

Then George, you go and say,

> But there's not really a match between these two systems.
>Qabbala proposes only three elements.

May I ask you what your conception of these three elements are ?
Are they so absolutely different and apart from what can be appreciated
in Alchemy ? Am I to understand that you are seriously saying that
Quabala and Alchemy have not much in common ? What has struck me
the most in all my studies and practices is the uncanny universality in
all these systems. To realize this is so enriching and complementary that
it makes ones search and study truly a most beautiful quest in universal
kinship and oneness with all those who have ever sought, are seeking,
and ever will seek in all the noble denominations of methods, paths and
practices that have ever existed, are and ever will be.

Sincerely,

Steve Kalec

From: Eric C. Friedman
Date: Mon, 05 May 1997

Steve,

Don't get yourself worked up. The only possible basis for Mr.
Leake's bizarre statement that "Qabala only proposes three elements" is
the fact that the Sefer Yetzirah doesn't include the element Earth among
the 22 Paths.

The Sefer Yetzirah only speaks of the Fluid Elements of Fire, Air, &
Water, which are Active conduits of Creative Influence. Earth, however,
is considered by Sefer Yetzirah to be both the Passive Result and
ultimate Receiver of all the Creative Forces, and the subject of their
Formative Influences. Earth is not a Creative or Formative Force in
itself. Hence, it has no association among the 22 Paths which are the
conduits of Influence flowing from the Creator to His Creation. This
structure of "conduits" exists in and defines the Qabalistic World of
Yetzirah ("Formation"), being the origin of the title of the Sefer ("Book
of") Yetzirah. This World receives its name from the fact/concept that it
is the Forces of this realm which impress Forms upon the One Substance.
However, none of these Forms are Fixed until manifest in the
"subsequent" World of Assiah (literally "Action") which is the realm of
ultimate manifestation and Fixation in the element Earth.

These are all the "Philosophical" qualities of the elements in
the Creative & Formative process as delineated by the Qabala. However, in
Assiah, the realm of fixed manifestation, the Four Elements are defined
as the existential basis of all Matter. As such, they are not Formative
Influences, they are Manifest Results.
But they are the Root Elements of which all Forms of Matter are
combinations, in varying proportions. And it is these proportions, among
other qualities & quantities, which are determined in the World of
Formation.

Qabala, as a practice, is (among other things) the process of
entering the Volatile & Volatizing World of Formation in order to reform
oneself. In this context, "reformation" is avery exalted, spiritual
process, merited only by devotion to the Will of the Creator. As such, it
is a process which is very much akin, historically as well as
spiritually, to the "Inner" Alchemical process.

Eric Friedman

Date: Mon, 5 May 1997
From: George Leake

>steve kalec asks
>May I ask you what your conception of these three elements are ?

None really...I just remember reading about them. A pretty simple one I guess.

>Are they so absolutely different and apart from what can be appreciated
>in Alchemy?

I'm not sure what you mean by "appreciated", I am asserting though that
the two systems do not match up and are only recently compared or rather
people have reinterpreted them in modern times in order to try to make up a
synthesis for some odd reason that doesn't really work. Too bad people
can't spend their time understanding these systems on their own terms
first.

>Am I to understand that you are seriously saying that
>Quabala and Alchemy have not much in common?

Yeah. Let me put it this way, they have as much in common as Alchemy and
Tantra. In other words, there's nothing they have in common on a practical
level, its only in vague theoretical levels they do. And of course when
someone shines light through the holes in theory, everyone acts like the
Emperor is wearing clothes.

>What has struck me
>the most in all my studies and practices is the uncanny universality in
>all these systems.

That's certainly a tendency that tends to obsess people.

I've noticed a certain universality too, and I'm not sure how to explain
it. Everything I read is in the English language. (what are the odds?)

>To realize this is so enriching and complementary that
>it makes ones search and study truly a most beautiful quest in universal
>kinship and oneness with all those who have ever sought, are seeking,
>and ever will seek in all the noble denominations of methods, paths and
>practices that have ever existed, are and ever will be.

Sincerely, I'm happy for you. I'm not pointing out these things in order
to make you unhappy.

George Leake

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997
From: George Leake

>From: Eric C. Friedman
>The only possible basis for Mr.
>Leake's bizarre statement that "Qabala only proposes three elements" is
>the fact that the Sefer Yetzirah doesn't include the element Earth among
>the 22 Paths.

Obviously Friedman goes off the deep end here because someone's
questioning some assumptions. The point is there's little basis of
comparison here. If one is going to make the bizarre statement that two
systems match up because they have more details in common than ones that
diverge--then that's silly. I can be holding two glass vials, more alike in
most respects except one is filled with explosive chemicals, then isn't it
disingenuous to say the least to say this little difference doesn't matter
because both glass vials otherwise are the same?

>Qabala, as a practice, is (among other things) the process of
>entering the Volatile & Volatizing World of Formation in order to reform
>oneself. In this context, "reformation" is avery exalted, spiritual
>process, merited only by devotion to the Will of the Creator. As such, it
>is a process which is very much akin, historically as well as
>spiritually, to the "Inner" Alchemical process.

What does any of this have to do with Alchemy? The historical connections
have always been extraordinarily superficial, and the spiritual ones
limited.

George Leake

Date: Tue, 6 May 97
From: MIKE DICKMAN

I'd just like to add two observations here, if I may.

The first is the following quotation from Pierre Dujols, or Fulcanelli as he
was more famously known...

"'...Thus, the obscure life-force, latent and potential in the two primitive
mineral substances, develops by contact and struggle, the union of their
contrary natures, one fiery and the other watery. These alone are our
elements, and there exists no other. When the Philosophers speak of three
principles, intentionally describing and distinguishing them, they are using a
subtle artifice with the intention of throwing the neophyte into a cruel
perplexity. We thus certify, along with the most excellent authors, that two
bodies alone suffice to accomplish the Magistry from beginning to end. 'It is
not possible,' says L'Ancienne Guerre des Chevaliers, 'to acquire possession
of our Mercury other than by the means of two bodies, neither one of which may
come to its requisite perfection without the other.' If a third must be
admitted, it will be found in that which results from their coupling and is
born of their mutual destruction. For though one search again and again, never
will one find other parents of the stone than the two bodies - referred to as
principles - above mentioned, and from which the third arises, heir to the
mixed qualities of their begetting. This important point merited stressing...
etc...", Les Demeures Philosophales, I, pp. 368 et seqq., 3rd. edition, Paris,
Jean-Jacques Pauvert, 1983.

Going on to quote Flamel's extraordinary Livre des Figures Hi�roglyphiques, he
assures us that these two 'vray principes' are, indeed, 'soulfre' and 'argent
vif'.

The second - and this bearing out to a degree what Eric has said - is that in,
for example, the Tarot, the earth elements, higher and lower, may be said to
be represented by the so-called minor arcana as also by the Atu 'The
Universe', as also by all cards outside of 'The Fool', 'The Hanged Man' and
'The Last Judgement/Aeon', the which - in reverse order and according to the
GD systems of reading at any rate - represent 'The Name' (ShMA)... which, if
one is really going to push this thing to its limit, is the ONLY element...

Interestingly enough, of course, the name itself manifests as nothing at all,
as one, as two, as three, as four, as five, and - bien entendu! - ainsi de
suite... ad infinitum... What else?... Crowley (I think it was) was the first
to point out that zero itself already equals three, inasmuch as if one has
nothing, recognises that one has nothing, and then even goes so far as to
represent this nothing by some sort of plausible symbol, one is already one
heck of a way away from the nothing from which one originally started...

Perhaps one should see what George is saying somewhat along these lines?...

Respectfully,
m

From: Eric C. Friedman
Date: Tue, 06 May 1997

In direct response to Mike;

Again, we are brought back to the Sefer Yetzirah (the source of
the Tarot attributions), in which the Formative Principles of Fire and
Water (the letters Shin & Mem --which alone spell the word for "Name")
find both their source and reconciliation in Aleph/Air. Indeed, your
quotation is in agreement with Qabala (or vice versa), as the Principles
of Fire & Water, which can be - and are - equated with Heaven & Earth,
and thus the Two Substances spoken of by Nachmanides, are reconciled by
Air/Aleph/ the Firmament.

In the Tarot images we have Mem/Water being associated with The
Hanged Man, immersed in Waters (from a Qabalistic point of view,
considering the proper placement of the Path of Mem between Netzach &
Hod). Shin/Fire is associated with Judgement (or The "Aeon"), the
liberating Fire of the "real" Path of Shin, between Chochmah and Binah.
The Source AND Reconciliation of these Paths is the Path of Aleph,
between Chesed and Gevurah. These three paths define the three triads of
the Tree of Life, and by extension, all the dynamics of the Tree of Life.
As to why the founders of the Golden Dawn found it necessary to
reattribute the Hebrew Letters to the Paths on the Tree, I do not know.
All I can say is that the actual placement of the paths themselves are
derived from Sefer Yetzirah's division of the Hebrew letters into groups
of three, seven & twelve. Hence, 3 horizontal paths (as delineated
above), 7 vertical paths, & 12 diagonal paths.

Eric Friedman

Date: Tue, 06 May 1997
From: E. Elias Merhige

Regarding: Inner Alchemy and the Quabala

It makes sense for Alchemists if they so choose to out picture the
transformative processes of spirit and matter using the letters of the
Hebrew Alphabet.

Though Quabala and Alchemy are two distinct traditions, they do have a
meeting point and that point is a system of symbolic imagery used to
out picture the mystery behind the animation of matter. In that respect
I see them both as vital streams that flow very close to each other and
at times intersect.

In the discussion of there being only three elements in the Quabala, I
will share how I see there being a fourth element. What follows is a
pictogram that is a meditation tool showing the creative forces that
connect non being with being.

When spending some time with this, something very interesting begins to
happen. You begin to see that non being and being exist simultaneous in
this system.

But hey, don't take my word for it, draw it out for yourself, and let me
know.

In working with the Hebrew Alphabet, construct a uroborus with Aleph at
12 o'clock, Shin at 3 o'clock, Mem at 6 o'clock, and Sin at 9 o'clock .
Aleph, Shin and Mem exist as the three mothers of creation.
Aleph is potential for something to exist, Shin is the breath, the force
from Aleph; out of nothing something comes; "In the Beginning, was the
Word..." Mem is the waters of Memory, the sea of Platonic forms and
imaginal geometry's.
Sin is the shadow that centers itself behind and in front of creation.
It is the mysterious fourth element of the Quabala that simultaneously
manifests the other three elements, and transcends them as activated
soul. Shin mirrors Sin as breath made word, Aleph as the absence of
form, mirrors Mem as the possibility of all form. Shin is the breath
that comes out of the great potential of Aleph descending into the
waters of Mem and is given form through a 'baptism' of the
imagination, where Shin emerges out as Sin.

Best Wishes.

E. Elias Merhige

From: Steve Kalec
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997

To George Leake

>I can be holding two glass vials, more alike in most respects except
>one is filled with explosive chemicals, then isn't it disingenuous to say
>the least to say this little difference doesn't matter because both glass
>vials otherwise are the same?

I rather see it as the vials being different in our case and that
the contents being correspondingly the same.

>I've noticed a certain universality too, and I'm not sure how to explain
>it. Everything I read is in the English language. (what are the odds?)

I would have thought that maybe you would have read them in the
esoteric language of the universal symbologies.

Steve Kalec

From: Steve Kalec
Date: Wed, 7 May 1997

To Eric C. Friedman,

Thank you for your response, it was a pleasure hearing
from you. I appreciate and I am very much with you in your views
and your expressions concerning the correspondences between
the processes of Qabala and Alchemy. Thanks for your explanation
of the earth element and how it is considered in the Sefer Yetzirah.

>Earth, however, is considered by Sefer Yetzirah to be both the
>Passive Result and ultimate Receiver of all the Creative Forces,
>and the subject of their Formative Influences.

Would I be wrong if I quoted the Tabula Smaragdina Of Hermes ?

Concerning the creative forces, " Its power is most perfect when
it has again been changed into Earth. "

Best Regards,

Steve Kalec

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997
From: George Leake

>From: E. Elias Merhige
>It makes sense for Alchemists if they so choose to out picture the
>transformative processes of spirit and matter using the letters of the
>Hebrew Alphabet.

I've yet to be convinced

>Though Quabala and Alchemy are two distinct traditions, they do have a
>meeting point and that point is a system of symbolic imagery used to
>out picture the mystery behind the animation of matter. In that respect
>I see them both as vital streams that flow very close to each other and
>at times intersect.

There are many systems that employ symbolic imagery. Based on that kind of
rigorous reasoning, shouldn't we also here be talking about rap music?
Nothing in it is meant literally, and as far as animation of matter, isn't
it involved in trying to make the listener think?

This flow that is being talked about has not been firmly established, and
only done so in the vaguest possible ways in modern times.

George Leake

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997
From: George Leake

>From: Eric C. Friedman
>In the Tarot images we have Mem/Water being associated with The
>Hanged Man,

Only in certain Tarot decks does this association apply.

>immersed in Waters (from a Qabalistic point of view, considering
the proper placement of the Path of Mem between Netzach & Hod).

To show how this is all completely irrelevant in many decks, the Hanged
Man in the original deck is a reference to a Traitor.

>Shin/Fire is associated with Judgement (or The "Aeon"), the
>liberating Fire of the "real" Path of Shin, between Chochmah and Binah.

Yeah, now if any of this had any relevance to Alchemy...

George Leake

Date: Thu, 8 May 97
From: MIKE DICKMAN

Eric

Thank you. And of course. I'd be interested to know exactly how the doubles
and singles were distributed over the seven diagonals and twelve
perpendiculars, though, if you'd be so kind?

Thanks,
m

From: Eric C. Friedman
Date: Fri, 09 May 1997

To MIKE;

Uh,...Oh yeah!

Well, using the "pre-Lurianic" Tree of Life diagram, in which the
diagonal paths only extend from the Middle Pillar to either one of the
extemeties of the Right or Left Pillars (this IS the diagram most often
found in Esoteric literature), the attributions are as follows:

The 12 "Simples":

Keter -- Chochmah: Heh
Keter -- Binah: Vav
Chochmah -- Tiferet: Zain
Binah -- Tiferet: Chet
Chesed -- Tiferet: Tet
Gevurah -- Tiferet: Yod
Tiferet -- Netzach: Lamed
Tiferet -- Hod: Nun
Netzach -- Yesod: Samech
Hod -- Yesod: Ayin
Netzach -- Malchut: Tzaddi
Hod -- Malchut: Qoph

The 7 "Doubles":

Chochmah -- Chesed: Beit
Binah -- Gevurah: Gimel
Keter -- Tiferet: Dalet
Chesed -- Netzach: Kaf
Gevurah -- Hod: Peh
Tiferet -- Yesod: Resh
Yesod -- Malchut: Tav

Careful study & meditation on these paths - ESPECIALLY IN
RELATION TO THE THREE TRIADS OF THE SPHERES - will quickly begin to
reveal a transformative process; whether from "Above to Below" (the
Fixation of Spirit in Matter) or from "Below to Above" (the Volatization
of Spirit from Matter).

Again, how these 22 Paths are grouped in relation to the 3
Descending/Ascending Triads of the Ten Spheres - the Triads being defined
by the 3 Horizontal paths as much as by the spheres of the Middle Pillar
- is the key to practical work with them.

Eric Friedman

From: Steve Kalec
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997

To George Leake,

>There are many systems that employ symbolic imagery. Based on that kind of
>rigorous reasoning, shouldn't we also here be talking about rap music?
>Nothing in it is meant literally, and as far as animation of matter, isn't
>it involved in trying to make the listener think?

I am certain that the members of this Scholarly Alchemy Forum do
not equate the mundane offerings of rap music with the profound images
gifted to us by the moving spirit of divine consciousness. Rap music
shedding light on the mystery of the animation of matter ??? .
I don' t think so !

Steve Kalec

From: Noel Kettering
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997

>George Leake wrote:

>There are many systems that employ symbolic imagery. Based on
>that kind of rigorous reasoning, shouldn't we also here be talking
>about rap music? Nothing in it is meant literally, and as far as
>animation of matter, isn't it involved in trying to make the
>listener think?

The "target audience" will probably NOT hear the Voice of God,
though, to some - "All voices speak the Word of God."

>Steve Kalec wrote:

>I am certain that the members of this Scholarly Alchemy Forum do
>not equate the mundane offerings of rap music with the profound images
>gifted to us by the moving spirit of divine consciousness. Rap music
>shedding light on the mystery of the animation of matter ??? .
>I don' t think so !

"If thine EAR be single, thy whole body shall be full of light."

There is only One Voice, and only One ear to hear.

Noel Kettering

Date: Sun, 11 May 97
From: MIKE DICKMAN

Eric

Simple enough and pretty clear, and I shall certainly be looking into
it.Thanks.

I think you will find Mathers' arrangement was particularly concerned to show
a serpentine mounting movement backwards through the paths (and cards) to
correspond with the descending lightning-flash of the sephiroth. Starting in
TAV and moving slowly from side to side up the tree, one could then mount each
letter, pathway, colour and card in turn until final resolution from BINAH
into KETHER via ALEPH...

According to Rabbi Marc-Alain Ouaknin, head of the ALEPH Centre for Jewish
Studies and Research in Paris, the whole POINT of any interpretation is not
that it be correct but that it become a path of exploration for whoever
chooses to use it - preferably he or she who first discovered it... There ARE
no final meanings: meanings are pathways leading only to further meanings and
further meanings ad infinitum.

After all, if there were some fixed and infallible truth on which one might
base oneself without any fear of error or misinterpretation, it would suffice
simply to meditate on that, wouldn't it?... And then the whole of this forum
would simply be rendered stupid and redundant, our (very precious) selves
included!...

As yer man sez: Ora, lege, lege, relege, labora et invenies. The only stupid
questions as far as I know, are the ones you don't ask.

Thanks for helping out an idiot.

Best regards,
m

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997
From: Al Billings

> I am certain that the members of this Scholarly Alchemy Forum do
> not equate the mundane offerings of rap music with the profound images
> gifted to us by the moving spirit of divine consciousness. Rap music
> shedding light on the mystery of the animation of matter ??? .
> I don' t think so !

You're letting your cultural biases show. Perhaps if you were black or
from the neighborhoods where rap music was created, you would see it
differently?

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997
From: George Leake

>From: Steve Kalec
>I am certain that the members of this Scholarly Alchemy Forum do
>not equate the mundane offerings of rap music with the profound images
>gifted to us by the moving spirit of divine consciousness. Rap music
>shedding light on the mystery of the animation of matter ??? .
>I don' t think so !

By what standards then are you judging? Clearly, rap music fits all the
conditions you mentioned, so it must connect! Unless of course you are
window-shopping for antiques.

George Leake

Date: Mon, 12 May 1997
From: Belle Hall

> From: George Leake
> By what standards then are you judging? Clearly, rap music fits all the
> conditions you mentioned, so it must connect! Unless of course you are
> window-shopping for antiques.

My dearest Mr. Leake,

I teach in a predominately minority school. If these young people
who are so very different than myself have taught me nothing else
over the last 20 years the greatest lesson has been "What goes
around comes around." Before you resort to sarcasm again let
me remind us all that it was you who first made reference to the rap
music. Let me also remind you that sarcasm derives from the greek for
tearing the flesh. IMO(it is not so humble at this moment) the forum's
design is to allow us to come together to exchange ideas. It is difficult
to do so when flesh tearing is an option.

In qabala work one is seeking wisdom and there are numerous paths for a
reason; no one need take the exact same path. I choose to heed what my
students have taught me. I send forth light and peace in hopes that light
and peace is what comes back around to me. Alchemists seeking gold did
not do so at the expense of those around them. They repeatedly gave
praise to God and most contributed to charitable works. Now back to
alchemy INNER.

Peace, Belle

In Psychology and Alchemy on page 317 is a picture from Mutus Liber of
Saturn devouring his children. Does this Saturn have to do with the
planet as well as the myth?

From: schalk
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997

MIKE DICKMAN writes:

>After all, if there were some fixed and infallible truth on which one might
>base oneself without any fear of error or misinterpretation, it would suffice
>simply to meditate on that, wouldn't it?... And then the whole of this forum
>would simply be rendered stupid and redundant, our (very precious) selves
>included!...

[sc] mike,
i was wondering why you would say something of the likes, if by "knowing" the truth indeed makes you free?

how much of the the words of Jesus when he says "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" needs to be meditated on, and how much needs to be accepted, i.e. faith, before any inner work can be continued with?

why not accept the responsibility that the truth is to be known, and not to be considered, as being valid or not? "even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." have we lost our ability to recognise the truth to such an extend that it has become something apart from our existence, and as such be of that which we have to "take time of" to consider? do we not believe this: "howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come."?

regards,
schalk

From: Steve Kalec
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997

To: Noel Kettering

> The "target audience" will probably NOT hear the Voice of God,
> though, to some - "All voices speak the Word of God."

It is true that wisdom and truth can be found in a zillion sources
for those who have eyes to see with and those who have ears to hear
with. Let us not deny that lies, falsehoods and negativities can also be
found there in a zillion places. But we were talking about the sacred
esoteric language of symbols spoken by our Divine Inner Self. We were
talking about the Divine forces and the mystery of their animating of
matter. Forgive me if I have reasons not to seek these mysteries in
Rap music. Please don't understand this as my being culturally biased
as was insinuated in someone's earlier post.

> "If thine EAR be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. "
> There is only One Voice, and only One ear to hear.

This quote is a very esoteric statement. If thine attention not be
devided between the outer and the inner consciousness. If you can
concentrate and attain the subjective state of balance between the
objective and the unconscious, then truly your whole subtle psychic
body will be filled with light.

I myself know this as a method of inner attunement with focus on
the Pineal gland located in the center of one's head between his two ears.
There actually is an exersise to activate the Pineal gland by taking a deep
breath and while holing it place your index fingers with a slight pressure
in the ears. Don' t laugh ! Try it, do it three times before you do your
regular meditation exersise. The Light is a true psychic light that will
fill the psychic subtle body when one achieves the immersion into the
blessed silence to be found there. This silence is the silence of the Self,
when all thought stops. It has nothing to do with the silence outside, for
inner silence can be achieved regardless. When this happens then one
will see and feel the gentle heat, the well being, purifying and
regenerative energies of this divine Light and Fire.

Steve Kalec

From: Noel Kettering
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997

>> Noel Kettering wrote:
>> The "target audience" will probably NOT hear the Voice of God,
>> though, to some - "All voices speak the Word of God."

> Steve Kalec wrote:
> (clip)
> But we were talking about the sacred esoteric language of symbols
> spoken by our Divine Inner Self. We were talking about the Divine
> forces and the mystery of their animating of matter. Forgive me
> if I have reasons not to seek these mysteries in Rap music. Please
> don't understand this as my being culturally biased as was
> insinuated in someone's earlier post.

No forgiveness needed, Steve, I do not seek those mysteries in Rap
Music either. But, for me, it IS a cultural bias. I am not among
the "target audience", having passed that age bracket long ago.

Still, if the random noise of nature can carry the beauty of God's
voice, then anything that has been organized by Man must also be
able. Surely there are those who hear beauty in Rap (or any of the
many styles of music 'we' don't like), just as surely as I find
beauty in Bulgarian Folk Singing and Balinese Gamelon.

> "If thine EAR be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. "
> There is only One Voice, and only One ear to hear.

> This quote is a very esoteric statement. If thine attention not be
> devided between the outer and the inner consciousness. If you can
> concentrate and attain the subjective state of balance between the
> objective and the unconscious, then truly your whole subtle psychic
> body will be filled with light.
> (clip)

I agree, but here's a question. Which comes first?

Is it (A) the balancing of the consciousness that fills the body
with light? Or, is it (B) being filled with light that balances consciousness?

I think it is "B".

Noel Kettering

From: Steve Kalec
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997

To: Noel Kettering

> Still, if the random noise of nature can carry the beauty of God's
> voice, then anything that has been organized by Man must also be
> able.

Yes, I will agree with you that random noise as
the natural harmonious sounds of nature can rather be pleasantly
soothing and even uplifting. I hear beauty and harmonious music
in the collective song sung by the male frogs calling for the females
and the female frogs calling back seeking union . To me this reflects
an alchemical principle. In the evenings I can sit out on my porch
and listen to it all night. I can hear powerful and energetic music also
in the rush of waterfalls and rivers washing and dissolving what is in its
path. I can see alchemical principles in this too. I can hear the majestic
voice of God in the thunder storm and the pouring rain bringing down her
blessing from Above revitalizing and giving life to the Below. This is
surely alchemical. I can hear God's voice in the play and laughter of
children in a park. I can hear their joy in their own bliss. This too is
alchemy .The singing of the birds giving prays to the Divine. In all these
and many more I can see and hear in nature the voice of God.

> ... then anything that has been organized by Man must also be
> able.

Now believe me Noel that I respect your view, but I have my own
also that for the moment I need to respect. To me not all that has been
organized by man carries God's voice. Man has the ability to go against
nature and he does so as is seen in so many places. Man creates noise
that destroys every day. I saw a program on TV where they were showing
the destructive harmonics produces by some of the hard rock and metallic
music. They show in experiments where even plants through time faced
from and grew away from these sources. Yet they did not mind certain
music whose harmonics were harmonious. I myself have many a times
shut the radio on a hard piece because it was driving me nervous. I do
remember one year hear in Montreal, there was a metallic music concert.
When it was over the audience was so riled up that hundreds were fighting
on st. Catherine street and store windows were broken and looting was
rampant. It took the police till the morning hours to calm the street.
It is also proven how traffic and construction noises tire one out slowly
but surely especially when exposed through long periods. They even
speed up aging and produce ill heath when exposed daily through years.

> Surely there are those who hear beauty in Rap (or any of the
> many styles of music 'we' don't like), just as surely as I find
> beauty in Bulgarian Folk Singing and Balinese Gamelon.

Surely ! Yes, you are right and I agree. But the original thread that
brought this whole argument was not about the beauty of music. It was
about seeking out the mysteries of the alchemical mercurial spirits and
how they infuse and animate matter. We said that these secrets are
well expressed in Alchemy symbols which can be equated to some of
the symbols expressed in the Qabala. Someone equated these symbols
to rap music. I happened to disagree because I could not see these
symbols in rap music. For this I have discovered that I am culturally
biased. Well , live and learn I guess.

> Is it (A) the balancing of the consciousness that fills the body
> with light? Or, is it (B) being filled with light that balances
consciousness?
>
> I think it is "B".

Again, I respect your view. For myself I believe both cases are
true. But generally if one is too objective he blocks out the subjective
and thus the light also. There are alchemical exercises that aid one
in internalizing and balancing one's consciousness to give way for the
light. Now when one is too much to the unconscious the light can' t be
realized because, well, one is unconscious. The ideal state is the
in between state, the Subjective, where we are half conscious half
unconscious. This is the borderline state where inner realizations can
manifest. The subjective state is the bridge between the unconscious
and the conscious. It is only the subjective self that can climb mount
Sinai to see the burning bush and receive God's message.The Objective
Self, Arron has to stay passive at the foot of the mountain. In the
Bible it says Moses had a speech impediment, he could not speak to
his people. The Subjective Self needs to give the message to his brother
the objective self that has a mouth ( Arron ). Arron thus passes the
message over to the outside world. I realize that I might get some flack
for this, but I takes my chances.

Please accept all this as being in my own humble opinion.

Best Regards,

Steve Kalec

Date: Wed, 30 Apr 97
From: MIKE DICKMAN

Just a few brief notes here...

YVD = a point, a straight line, and a right-angled triangle... Its meaning is
'a point', and (in modern Hebrew) 'iodine'...

There is a contention that ALL Hebrew letters are made up of combinations of
these three elements (plus the curve which is, in effect, a straight line
subject to equal and simultaneous stress, as opposed to the angle, whose
stress is sequential, first in one direction, then in the other)...
'Gematria' is the Hebrew form of the Greek word 'geometria'... The numerical
significance is subsequent to this original meaning.

Each letter is first and foremost a FORM, unsounded, unspoken, and purely
evocative as is... To sound it, or name it, requires the interposition of
other letters, both consonants and vowels...

Thus the FORM of, e.g., Aleph, is that of a point, a straight line and a
right-angled triangle, but its sounding forth requires the addition of letters
Lamed and Pheh-final as well as the vowel-sign 'segol'...
Creation, of course, takes place in the world of Briah...

For what it's worth,
m

From: Eric C. Friedman
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997

Mike,
Yeah, the word in Sefer Yetzirah - "Netivot" - which is
translated as "Paths", is taken to specifically connote those paths
which are "off the beaten track". It means those new paths made
by the individual in his or her special, unique journey. I just like to start
with the beaten track as a point of reference. Its easy to get lost very
quickly in this stuff. And, for obvious reasons, Tradition is very
important to me.

As for the cards, I still use the Golden Dawn attributions of
the letters to the cards, and the planets to the 7 Double letters. After
alot of experimentation, with and without guidance, they have always
worked the best, as I expect you'll see.

Again, following the Sefer Yetzirah, everything
revolves/evolves/resolves around the Three Horizontal Paths of
the 3 Mothers, as much as the Spheres of the Middle Pillar. R.
Joseph Gikatalia placed great emphasis on this, in both "Ginat Egoz"
& "Shaarei Orah". In both books, he constantly refers to the three Triads
as the "Supernal World" (triad of Keter/path of Shin), the "World of
Heaven" (triad of Tiferet/path of Aleph), and the "Lower World"
(triad of Yesod/path of Mem). It must be remembered that the
Firmament of Genesis, separating the Higher Waters from the
Lower Waters, was called Heaven. And these are all the Fluid
Influences of the Realm of Yetzirah, which become Fixed in
Malchut/Assiah (Earth).

Eric

Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 15:54:20 -0600 (CST)
From: Mackie Blanton

1. www.cyborganic.com/people/ovid/kbllinks
[List of Qabbalah pages on the WWW]
2. www.netvoyage.net/~dalfin
["The Qabbalah Connection"]
3. www.csbh.mhv.net/~m...kabbalah/kab_book
[Qabbalah and mysticism book list]
4. www.io.org/~vma/kabbalah
["kabbalah Home Page" under auspices of B'nai Baruch]
5. www.torah.org
[Project Genesis: Online classes in Kabbalah]
6. www.digital-brilliance.com/kab
[Excelent reading list and WWW directory]
7. Smoss@l.net
["Kabbalah Net": email discussions with Rabbi Steven Moss]

Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 15:00:16 -0600 (CST)
From: George Leake

>From: Mackie Blanton

Most of these I couldn't find...

>1. www.cyborganic.com/people/ovid/kbllinks
> [List of Qabbalah pages on the WWW]
File Not found. The requested URL /people/ovid/kbllinks was not found on this server.

>2. www.netvoyage.net/~dalfin
> ["The Qabbalah Connection"]
The requested URL /~dalfin was not found on this server.

>3. www.csbh.mhv.net/~m...kabbalah/kab_book
> [Qabbalah and mysticism book list]
Netscape "unable to find this server"

>4.ww.io.org/~vma/kabbalah
> ["kabbalah Home Page" under auspices of B'nai Baruch]
File Not Found
The requested URL /kabbalah was not found on this server.

>5. www.torah.org
> [Project Genesis: Online classes in Kabbalah]
This one, that I could find, is splendid. Traditional

>6. www.digital-brilliance.com/kab
> [Excelent reading list and WWW directory]
Occult kabbalah, essays by thelemist Bill Heidrick, for example

>7. Smoss@l.net
> ["Kabbalah Net": email discussions with Rabbi Steven Moss]
So in other words, NOT a website (since my server couldn't find it)

George Leake

Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 23:41:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Zeljko Bistrovic

I have web site about Kabbalah. This is still under construction
but I will finish it in March.The URL is

http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/1471/Hindex.html

If you have some comments or ideas e-mail me.

"Zeljko Bistrovic"

Thanks,

your Aharon

From: Alberto I. LaCava
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 14:46:48 +0000

To Donald Minson:

Although the complete body of the Zohar has not been translated into
English, a good fraction is made available in the Simon and Sperling edition
of the Zohar, in 5 volumes. Another bit was translated from an earlier Latin
translation by Mathers and can be purchased with the title "The Kabbalah
Unveiled". It contains the books of the large and the small assembly, which
were not included in the Simon and Sperling translation.

I purchased my copy of the Zohar from the "Research Center of Kabbalah", a
proper Jewish Research Center and school, headed by Rabbi Phillip Berg
(with lineage that comes directly from The Ari, Luria). They also have other
Kabbalah material, of course, and do not mind too much if you are not
Jewish. You may contact them in New York at 718 805 9122 and in L.A. at 213
475 7079

I hope this helps you locate good source material on the Kabbalah.

Alberto I. LaCava

Date: 7 Jan 1997 07:54:17 -0000
From: Zeljko Bistrovic

Shalom!

If we talking about Kabbalah, there is one text with great meaning: Torah.
When we study Torah, we can study other literature like Sepher Yetzirah,
Sepher Zohar, Sepher ha-Bahir etc.

One man in this century is very informed in judaistic mystic:
Gerschom Scholem.

with regards

Aharon

Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 11:38:36 -0500 (EST)
From: Jose

Aharon,

When you refer to Torah, what time-frame/specific text(s) are you
referring to, i.e. do you consider Qabalah to be present from the outset,
rather than a product of the middle ages as is often stated? (I will
henceforth use the spelling 'Qabalah', as someone has pointed out that it
is phonetically more "correct" given the usual transliteration of the
letter QVPh--although I suppose it would be most correct to spell it QBLH;
but I am speaking only for myself...)

As Adam sets forth in the inaugurating message for this list, we should
attempt to stay as close as possible within the subject of "alchemy".
While most of us obviously consider alchemy to cover a broader range than
the Near Eastern/European art of the transmutation of metals, still, we
seem all of a sudden to be discussing Qabalah directly to the apparent
exclusion of alchemy.

Therefore, in order to try and steer both streams together, I would like
to raise an issue which has been on my mind for some time: does anyone
think that there are elements of alchemical allegory in the Book of Exodus?

Jose

Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 00:03:05 -0800
From: Donald Minson

I found a web address containing the Sefer Yetzirah with a commentary
by Gerschom Scholem if any one is interested...

http://www.butterfly.net:80/neoism/squares/sefer.html

Respectfully,

DMINSON

Date: 8 Jan 1997 08:07:05 -0000
From: Zeljko Bistrovic

>When you refer to Torah, what time-frame/specific text(s) are you
>referring to, i.e. do you consider Qabalah to be present from the outset,
>rather than a product of the middle ages as is often stated?

Dear Jose,

Qabalah is very old discipline which teaches us more than we can
learn, older than middle age in Europe. Just read few books, first Sepher
Yetzirah.

>As Adam sets forth in the inaugurating message for this list, we should
>attempt to stay as close as possible within the subject of "alchemy".
>While most of us obviously consider alchemy to cover a broader range than
>the Near Eastern/European art of the transmutation of metals, still, we
>seem all of a sudden to be discussing Qabalah directly to the apparent
>exclusion of alchemy.

What is subject of "alchemy"? This is INNER alchemy forum. Alchemy is not
only transmutation of metals, as you think, and not just in posession of Near
Eastern/European.

>Therefore, in order to try and steer both streams together, I would like
>to raise an issue which has been on my mind for some time: does anyone
>think that there are elements of alchemical allegory in the Book of Exodus?

All material world is allegory.

Your Aharon

Date: Wed, 8 Jan 97 22:38:37 UT
From: Mike Dickman

As to all of this, we have few enough (not to mention limited enough! )
senses not to go chucking out too much before we even start... Seven grades of
colour, is it, and some three and a half octaves of sound, just to mention the
most all-encompassing...

As translator of both Tibetan and Old French, I earnestly implore you � "There
are not different kinds of mind," as old Huang�po so kindly pointed out, so,
although "there is no teaching that can be transmitted in words", everything
and nothing at all, all perfectly meet at this point.

As Aharon says, "the material world is all allegorical"... Alors! Qu'est�ce
qu'on attend?

By the way, thank you, Donald, for the Sepher Yetzira information.

Respectfully,
mike dickman

From: "Zeljko Bistrovic"
Date: 2 Jan 1997 08:29:22 -0000

Shalom!

I have my own interests, and one of these is the tudy of Kabbalah. I made some
analogies between Kabbalah and Tarot, and I notice that has been done many times
before. But there are some diferences. I am interested to make contact with
anyone who is in love in Kabbalah.

This "Inner symposium" is like children exchange of pictures of famous
actors or some else idols. But this is fun. I, also, have collection of different
Kabbalah images, most of the "tree of life". I will show you some.

I am interested about Symbols, and I have question about the picture of the
lion on the frontispiece from Beroalde de Verville's "Le Tableau des riches inventions".

Gratefuly your Aharon

Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 08:06:57 -0600
From: Howard Higgins

Aharon,

> I am interested to make contact with anyone who is in love in Kabbalah.

I am also studying the Kaballah, have done so for several years now.
Would be interested in other's opinions on it.

> I, also, have collection of different Kabbalah images, most of the
> "tree of life". I will show you some.

Would like to see some of them.

> Gratefuly your Aharon

Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 11:17:35 -0500
From: Gilbert Arnold

I love Kaballah. Can you describe the picture of the
lion on the frontispiece from Beroalde de Verville's "Le Tableau des
riches inventions" ?

Blessings,

Gilbert

Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 00:33:27 -0800
From: Donald Minson

Zeljko,

I, too, am very interested in Kabbalah, yet I know little of it... I am
interested in finding out more, especially of what interests you... I
have only begun to read of the tree of life, sefirot, YHWH, etc. I have
come across many references to the Kabbalah in the works of Jung, Joseph
Campbell, Aleister Crowley's Tarot Deck (The Book of Thoth), and in
Alchemy and Rosicrucian texts... there are some references in The
Alchemical Virtual Library that are interesting... I would love to begin
a Kabbalistic exchange with some suggested reading from you, I haven't
looked for it yet, but I understand the ZOHAR is a good source...

> This "Inner symposium" is like children exchange of pictures of famous
> actors or some else idols. But this is fun.

...It is childLIKE (which I admire--the sense of awe and wonder, and
eagerness to learn, etc.) but, thankfully, not childISH... I, too, find
it fun, and also exciting to find others so enthusiastic and willing to
share...

> I, also, have collection of different
> Kabbalah images, most of the "tree of life". I will show you some.

I'm very interested in the collecting of images, my computer has
facilitated this greatly. Jung centers his work on the interpretation of
them and his elucidations of the alchemical symbology has been paramount
to my understanding... I find them very involving, stimulating, and
perfect for contemplation (alchemical and otherwise)... very often so
much more can (and should) be said with emblem, symbol, and
image...after all the unconscious employs it as its communicative
device...

> I am interested about Symbols, and I have question about the picture of the
> lion on the frontispiece from Beroalde de Verville's "Le Tableau des riches
> inventions".

I have this frontispiece as my wallpaper currently... there is
information concerning the cutting off of the lion's paws in Jung's
Alchemical Studies (p.329-30.) Its taken from the section entitled "the
torture motif". The motif occurs in alchemy as the cutting off of human
hands and the paws of the lion... Basically it represents a difficult
change ,but necessary for transformation... especially the stage
called: Nigredo-- the long dark night of the soul... depression, etc.
there was also some information in the letter: Mon, 30 Dec 1996
from Richard Roberts

Respectfully,

DMINSON

Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 10:54:03 -0500 (EST)
From: Jose R. Mediavilla

> From: Donald Minson
> I, too, am very interested in Kabbalah, yet I know little of it... I am
> interested in finding out more, especially of what interests you... I
> have only begun to read of the tree of life, sefirot, YHWH, etc. I have
> come across many references to the Kabbalah in the works of Jung, Joseph
> Campbell, Aleister Crowley's Tarot Deck (The Book of Thoth), and in
> Alchemy and Rosicrucian texts... there are some references in The
> Alchemical Virtual Library that are interesting... I would love to begin
> a Kabbalistic exchange with some suggested reading from you, I haven't
> looked for it yet, but I understand the ZOHAR is a good source...

The Zohar is probably one of the earliest kabbalistic texts (following the
Sefer Yetzirah), and hails from around 12th-13th century Spain. It is
obscure to say the least, but maybe that refelects my own limitations.
For those of us that may not already know, it is worthwhile and fair to
mention that the writings of Dr. Paul Foster Case, currently stewarded by
Builders of the Adytum, contain a wealth of information on Kabbalah and
Tarot in more or less modern terminology (but not scholarly). Most
notably as concerns this list, the last series of lessons is entitled
"Spiritual Alchemy", and consists of his own interpretation of alchemy via
extensive use of gematria (the kabbalistic method of numerological
correspondences). Unfortunately, to my knowledge, these lessons are only
available through membership in BOTA, with the usual attendant obligations
to not divulge their contents directly, etc., but I thought it would be
fair just the same to point them out as a potentially rewarding source.

Jose

Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 00:22:41 -0800
From: Donald Minson

Jose,
Thanks for the info! I have received info from BOTA and with my student
budget can't afford the fee... though it is little it is regular and that is a
demand...I knew nothing of the Zohar's availability but will seek where
and what I can...again, I appreciate your suggestions...

DMINSON

Date: Mon, 20 Jan 97 18:34:48 UT
From: Mike Dickman

Aharon

This is going back to your first letter on the forum... You say you have
established Tarot-Qabalah correspondences which differ from others
you've seen (GD, I suppose, and Crowley, among others)
I'd be interested to know what you find.

Respectfully,

Mike

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 17:50:55 -0600 (CST)
From: George Leake

>Aharon
>This is going back to your first letter on the forum... You say you have
>established Tarot-Qabalah correspondences which differ from others
>you've seen (GD, I suppose, and Crowley, among others)
>I'd be interested to know what you find.
>Mike

Personally, I think this might be a bit off topic, but I can provide such
evidence off forum if anyone's interested

George Leake

Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 20:49:10 -0500 (EST)
From: Richard Patz

>From: Zeljko Bistrovic
>I am interested to make contact with
>anyone who is in love in Kabbalah.

Perhaps we could discuss the washing of lepers ie. the purifying of Naaman.
It is an image that appears in Aesch Mezareph.

"Learn therefore to purify Naaman, coming from the North, out of Syria, and
acknowledge the power of Jordan" (chpt.1)

"Naaman the Syrian, the General of the Army of the King of Aram....by whom
is Allegorically to be understood the Matter of the Metallic Medicine, to be
purified Seven times in Jordan" (chpt.6)

"And that thou mayest the better understand this Matter, take the Lesser
Number of this word Naaman, which is 21, this is equal to the Number of the
Name of Kether, which is Ehejeh." (chpt.6)

This image also appears in Michael Maier's Atalanta Fugiens (1617)

"Emblem 13:
The ore of the philosophers is dropsical and wants to be washed seven times
in the river, just as Naaman, the leper, washed in the Jordan.

"Epigram 13:
The sick ore of the Wise is entirely swollen by dropsy,
And therefore it yearns for the benefiting waters.
Just as Naaman expelled the traces of leprosy in the Jordan,
It is washed by its waters three and four times:
So throw your body into the sweet water
And soon that will bring the strength of health in cases of disease."

[http://www.levity.com/alchemy/atalantamusic13.html]

Any thoughts or reflections on this materials?

Richard Patz

From: Anthony House
Date: Tue, 6 May 1997

Hello everyone!

A comparison has been made between Qabala and Alchemy. Please read the
following from a transcript I made of a lecture given by one of todays
prominent Alchemists who by the way is also a nuclear physicist and chemist
retired from IBM in France: These words are from Jean Dubuis.
_________________

Tape #1 Thursday October 1st 1992 LPN-USA Seminar #1

Energies in Alchemy & Qabala

Before we start this seminar I'd like to say some words on the LPN
philosophy. We are not library alchemists but laboratory alchemists. And in
all of these lectures we will give you the means to do the experiments. We
will hand out photocopies. Because we believe that if we want to go further
in alchemy we must understand perfectly what we are doing. We must keep
free of superstitions, but verify experimentally. We think that when you
have heard all our explanations, and the experiments and demonstrations
that we will be having, you will be able to reproduce the experiments and
to explain with certitude not from what people say (claim) but by your own
words (works).
We will start with a lecture on energy. During our work we found out that
the energies that are involved with alchemy, were the same as the ones used
in operative qabala. So in considering this thing we will see teachings
from Germany that are some kind of synthesis that are between alchemy,
qabala, or operative magic and astrology. But the so-called astrology for
practical reasons in alchemy is set to the planetary genius's probably. We
think that we cannot work at random in alchemy. And we will try to explain
how to manipulate properly the alchemical energies. First theory, then
practice. For language problems we will mix both qabala and alchemy first.
Because we have been brought to think during accomplishments and works,
that qabala explains some kinds of problems properly and alchemy, others as
well.
When we look at the text of the Golden Chain of Homer (points to wall)
this picture here, it's in accordance with the qabala. It says that
everything that exists comes from one energy and origin and that this
energy originates matter but also consciousness and energy. To speak of
this energy we will take the names of qabala. This energy starts with level
1, where it suffers and begins in successive steps, it coagulates to the
level of the density of our world and its power level. And it automatically
condenses to many levels, we have 1-2-3 here (points to chart) and 1-2-3
here, of these we will speak very little of. These levels do not concern
alchemy or qabala, except beginning on #3. We don't speak of these levels
because they have very little influence on the earth work. Because they are
levels where no space and time occur. The levels consist of alchemy and a
bit of chemistry.
The job we will be doing will be to consider the nature of these energies
of the upper worlds and the upper levels. There is no space or time and
energy is unitary. We start in the kingdom of duality, little by little
with coagulation, appears a denser space/time. From this point on every law
of nature by conception has a double aspect (+ or -) etc., this part of
energy is invisible. For the ordinary consciousness of man only begins at
level ten of coagulation. Whatever process you use in alchemy you will
always have to go by steps. All these levels of energy exist in everything,
in the mineral, vegetable, and man.

To understand what is coming, that will be spoken of Sunday, we will only
lightly speak of certain things, because today is a preparation so that you
can understand what we will do, then we will go (do it?). Every level
constitutes what we call an inner world or a level in the universe. In each
of these levels there exists things and elements that exist here on the
earth level.
Energy is in degrees and it can match matter and can act on it, even in
very subtle states in form. And when man can match his conscious with a
level he sees that in each of these worlds he can live consciously, just
like this (in this world) that exists in rocks, animals - and that things
are very little different from what people are seeing on this level (10).
Except that consciousness has to adapt to the space/time at each level
which is the biggest problem that we encounter. In fact the real work of
alchemy or qabala and the real initiation is to go up the levels of the
conscious of man, up one by one, so as to become conscious of these inner
worlds.
When dealing with alchemy or qabala it's important to know that the energy
comes down always by the same way. It is something you have to remember
when you will have complex experiments. Subtle energy in alchemy will be
the same way, you will make it come down in the same first way it will go
up, and in no alchemical experiment can you jump a level. That's the
general aspect of energy. These energies have several aspects we can use in
alchemy. If we consider the beginning up here (points to chart level 1) it
is the origin from which the matter is being carried, both names -
depending on the order, and when duality appears the energy takes two
aspects. An aspect which the ancients called the nitre and an aspect called
salt, in texts it's twice called salt of the sky and the salt of the earth
- then this energy divides into 2 - then appears the 4 elements on which
lots of (errors)? (experiments)? have been done and on which we will try to
explain a lot of things. The first are air and fire, they are in fact the
spiritual energies that animates things.
These are the energies used in alchemy and these energies are totally or
nearly totally ignored by the profane sciences. Earth and water are the
energies in the origin of the matter and structure. In alchemical
conceptions of principles we consider fire and air to form the principle
called sulfur. The principle that animates things. Earth and water form the
principle of salt - they are the structure of matter. Between the spiritual
and matter is an element called mercury, it is between the sign air and
water. Mercury in every kingdom is the element and junction between spirit
and matter. We will make a stop on the alchemical problem, here are
delicate things to explain. The names of these elements do not mean their
aspects. If we want a relatively correct picture of these elements - we
must consider the sunlight and if it seems white - and when it comes down
through the rain or a prism it's a new color. The elements are colors of
the primary unity and are included - there is an order of power in the
elements, fire is the strongest and in every initiatic or alchemistical
process - fire sets things.
The energy goes down by Fire, air, water, earth (Homer chart is reversed
for this), these elements in man are the body elements. These are the salt
- (traditionally)? we have produced a bad note by saying that when we go
through death the salt separates from the body. What he said now will be
right for man, for the vegetable, for mineral. When the death occurred
there was only a transfer of the energy produced (at the time)? This may
seem far from real alchemy but we will try to show you by experiment that
the matter - it is possible to have the elements go up step by step. In
fact what we will say tomorrow - coming up with the elements of matter -
bring back the consciousness of the operator on this same level and he will
become conscious of this level.
I will now come to a practical aspect, we had a little problem with the
6000 documents. We missed some documents of the alchemical work that will
be important to remember, that whatever level we consider we find there is
a series of things at every level with a sphere in between. In every level
there is a level of consciousness and density, and space/time, and for our
chemical work there are basic elements that are symbolic or reality having
a planet related. For instance here is mercury (points to chart), a metal,
a day of the week - Wednesday - a crystal - orthorhombic (Note: Here
Patrice says orthorhombic, however, mercury is rhombohedric) - and also a
certain number of plants. And when we will speak on Saturday we will spend
time to see what metal of -----? Back to our chemical work in manipulating
these energies we will talk a lot on the initiatic stones. Because a
vegetable stone allows much more quickly to have contact with inner levels.
For instance we think we will be able to let you have an experience or at
least a contact on this level (mercury?). And we will explain later why we
chose this level.
But the vegetable stone only gives temporary experience. To have a
definitive experience (experiment) we must work on the metallic stone
(plane). We will explain in detail how we can Upper? cover? offer? the
level(s) of the stones. The stones belonging to the white work will allow
to accomplish contact at these levels (points to chart 10-6) and the stones
that are red allow to initiate these levels (points to same chart levels
6-3) upper levels. We are rather time short because the program we have for
you is (long?) The consequences of initiation here will be followed (up
on?) For us alchemy is a very logical and very --- kind --- and we do not
believe in the value of ---- because we think that people, as will be
explained tomorrow, that people who are not proper hearted, who are not
real knights will not succeed in alchemy.
That's for tomorrow, and we will explain to you the rules of the
laboratory - the second part is - you must have a strong heart - the world
was created as it is - and it is not credible to make chemical experiments
if we do not understand what we are doing, and if we don't know the ethical
reasons based on alchemical rules.
We think that during this seminar we will come to some interesting ideas
and to make two KEY stones on the alchemical path and we think that we will
explain to you a problem on the metallic work. And Thursday the elements
given will allow to do at least two thirds of the Flamel work. We will
speak on the third work but it brings on a bit of a problem. (long break)
What seems (il)logical? we will start by explaining the metallic work in
the laboratory, we are going to be working a lot on it. This will be the
first series of basic ideas on it.

Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 20:11:41 -0500 (EST)
From: Richard Patz

>From: Mark House
>In qabala the path to begin ascension is 32. To understand this you
>start from Assiah and take a direct path upwards or inwards towards
>Yesod. However the path of the fire is the most common for alchemy and
>the dream state of seeing fire is most common when taking alchemically
>charged medicines that are releasing the fire of the "angel" of path 31.
>It is the path of fire and love. Divine love experience.

I would be interested in discussing parallels and points of contact between
Qabalah and Alchemy further.

We could even take a look at Aesch Mezareph. The first two chapters are at
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/aesch.html

>The stone is born in darkness.

A powerful comment. Thank you for this.

Richard Patz

Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 20:12:05 -0800
From: Belle Hall

George,

Thank you very much for the definition/redefinition of cabala
types. I am aware that as I read various books sometimes cabala
inferences are made as though the reader should just know which concept
to go with. As a novice please realize that while I sense the differences
I have not as of yet figured out how to be sure as sometimes the lines
are fuzzy.

To stick with it and not give up I liken cabala study to a group
of American literature teachers who "think" they know what Melville meant
when he created Moby Dick. Each has an interpretation which is sometimes
different. They can however agree that it is a symbolic tale even if they
cannot agree to every symbol.

I stuck with the INNER group because I am better at grasping
the big picture and less skilled at details. Each has an interpretation
which is sometimes different.

Somewhere I understood cabala/qabbalah to present the idea of
receiving? I thought that meant for me to prepare to receive?

Peace

Belle.

I just keep spelling it cabala because it is easier. Each has their own
interpretation again but we are still discussing a system of
gematria. Maybe we should go back to psychology again??

Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 14:46:41 -0600 (CST)
From: George Leake

>From: Belle Hall
>As a novice please realize that while I sense the differences
>I have not as of yet figured out how to be sure as sometimes the lines
>are fuzzy.

I think it can at least from the outset be approached from the angle of
your belief system. If you are a strict Jew--then you only have one way to
go. Some Christians dislike all qabbalah, some might embrace the
lullian/ficino/mirandola approach as suitably Christianized, some may say
the Golden Dawn approach is for them

>Somewhere I understood cabala/qabbalah to present the idea of
>receiving? I thought that meant for me to prepare to receive?

I'm not sure what you meant with this, but this nugget my sig.other
forwarded to me from a teacher of hers came to mind:

None of us will ever really comprehend the Infinite Source of Light
no matter how hard we try. Jewish myths tell us that when great sages
actually accomplished this stage and were able to look into the Light
what they found themselves doing was looking back to where they came from.
That the sacred Essence of the Light was *not* at the top of highest
mountain, but at the bottom of the mountain with the mother, the shepard,
the homemaker, the breadwinner. Some sages went mad with the realization
that their journey had brought them back to where they started - few
survived this journey with everything intact. From this I learn that
our task is to find and appreciate the Inifinite Light in our own everyday
reality - finding the Divine in the mundane, and not searching for the
Divine and the Spiritual by discarding all that is mundane.

George Leake

Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:16:50 -0600 (CST)
From: George Leake

>From: Mike Dickman
> - there is a very distinct difference between QBLH and
>cabala, to the point where they are completely different things with
>completely different aims in view, although both equally complex in terms
>of technique and diversity...

For those of you new to the subject, in order to avoid confusion, please
realize that even though Mike here means a specific tradition with "QBLH"
and "cabala", I know for a fact the term "cabala" means several things,
including at least 2 different traditions.

George Leake

Dear Jose,

Yahoo for you; I am familiar with the story of Joseph and I do follow
what you are doing even though I personally do not want to play with the
numbers. I have often wondered about why Joseph is the son of Rachel
and what significance it was that Jacob married Leah under that veil.
Leah means "wild cow" and Rachel means"ewe".

Do these tie into astrology? Since Jacob is the seed of the 12
tribes..... The cabala book I studied for a while categorized many items
according to the zodiac. Many alchemical pictures make use of zodiac
symbols. If I recall each of the sons is associated with a sign. Maybe it
is just "the house" as Aries is the first house? (Too many questions
sorry.) With which "house" is Joseph associated? If he is indeed the ego
then is he of the house as you see yourself? And his bones? they are
forms of calcium/khalix (pebble). Somewhere in my readings I came to
associate bone with the Hebrew word luz. Because it is hard, it represents
what in us is indestructible and then is like a belief in a form of
resurrection (probably not a good word choice..how about
emergence like spring?) Anyway the idea that through a piece of us,we
"might" come back. Sort of like Jurassic Park?

Please forgive my words for being on "pause/still" and "slow". My mind
is on "fast forward" and well .....

Peace,

Belle

And alchemy....sometimes there are twelve stages mentioned and one of
them is calcinatio coming from calx/lime see calcium thus bones.

Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 18:25:53 -0600 (CST)
From: Mackie Blanton

Jose, would you please clarify one or two points in your
recent query to Jose?

First, regarding the Qabbalah, what exactly do you mean by
"present from the outset"--from the outset of what? Judaism? Alchemy?
The beginning of time?

Secondly, my experience tells me that when someone frames a
question the way you have--"Does anyone think there are elements of
alchemical allegory in...Exodus"--that person's question is really an
affirmation and not a question. SoI am supposing that you do, indeed,
believe Exodus to contain alchemical allegory. Would you, therefore,
please give an exact example or two of what you mean. After all, the
question at hand is yours, not anyone else's at this moment.

If you actually can't give any examples from Exodus, perhaps you
would explain what exactly drives you intuitively to pose the question
in the first place.

Mackie Blanton

Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 19:32:51 -0800
From: Belle Hall

Dear Jose,

Yes! And I think Exodus would be an excellent place to begin. In
literature classes sometimes it is nice to have a focus. For
example, Women's works prior to 1900 or Literature of the supernatural
since WWI.. whatever? In the process you learn the literature, the
historical period as well as content and application to life. Maybe this
could be Alchemy and Qabalah as it pertains to the Book of Exodus?? Maybe
I have oversimplified again. I do feel that it is difficult to devotedly
study alchemy without having some working knowledge of Qabalah. It seems
to be a little different turn on similar material. But definitely
CONNECTED.

How then is it woven into the warp of the INNER fabric as a whole? Since
Exodus includes Christianity and Judaism,does it exclude Eastern thought
and/or other religions and cultures to which sensitivity should be shown?
Or would it be discussed as "a piece of literature"? I do not feel one way or the other-just asking???

Respectfully,

Belle

Date: Fri, 10 Jan 97 22:54:58 UT
From: Mike Dickman

While on the subject of Qabalah and Exodus, not to mention Genesis, I take it
everyone is aware of Carlo Suares' 'The Book of Eve' in Maitreya 4 [Shambhala,
1973] and Charles Ponc�'s 'The Alchemical Death: Notes from a Journa'l and'An
Alchemical Allegory: Notes Towards an Understanding of Genesis' in Maitreya 3 &
5 ['72 and '74] respectively?...

With love,
Mike

Date: Sat, 11 Jan 97 12:33:00 UT
From: Mike Dickman

While on the subject of Qabalah and Exodus - not to mention Genesis - I take
it everyone is aware of Carlo Suares' The Book of Eve in Maitreya 4
[Shambhala, 1973], and Charles Ponc�'s The Alchemical Death: Notes from a
Journal and An Alchemical Allegory: Notes Towards an Understanding of Genesis
in Maitreya 3 & 5 ['72 and '74] respectively?...

Was it Crowley who pointed out the double creation myth in Genesis? - The fact
that, at first, the primordial A-DAM (embodied consciousness, as it were) was
created male/ female in the image of the male/female singular/plural god,
ALHIM, and only subsequently preferred to deal with a second-level -
objective, possibly - reality, drawn forth from his/her/its own substance once
he/she/it had been put to sleep...

Respectfully,

mike