Alchemy Forum 0151-0200

From January 25th 1996, the Alchemy forum was restructured and the messages were sequentially numbered. This is an unedited extract of messages 151-200.
Go to next 50 messages . Back to forum archive.

Sun Feb 04 14:52:42 1996
Subject: 0151 Aurum potabile - Hudson again

Date: Sun, 04 Feb 1996 01:25:52 -0500 (EST)
From: hyson

Diane Munoz wrote concerning Dave Hudson --
Thanks for the reply. Mark McWilliams has sent a transcript of one of Hudson's
talks, and I have seen one video so far. So, i have a lot of information.
Now, can anyone here confirm his results? Perhaps someone has consumed the s
stuff and can comment? And -- Hudson flat out says that this is the
Philosopher's Stone, the Mana of the Hebrews etc. So -- I thought the
alchemists here would know: Is this the "Stone"? Is this the "Great Work"?
or what? or a scam?(as some think)
Thanks for your help.
BTW -- apparently I can search the Alchemy archives -- and thus stop bothering
you about things you have already discussed. Could someone give me a hand
on how to do this?
Aloha
Michael

Sun Feb 04 14:52:54 1996
Subject: 0152 Aurum potabile

Date: Sun, 4 Feb 96 21:03 NZDT
From: Pat Zalewski)

>From: Jon Marshall
>Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 10:51:36 -0800
>
>
>warning:::!!! possibly silly post ahead.
>
>thinking about my last post on the subject, about the gold in aurem potabile
>being homeopathic, and then thinking of vibrational medicine in general
(flower
>remedies, gem elixirs, radionic black box stuff etc.) and then thinking of
>Frater Albertus's comment about alchemy being 'about' raising vibrations, and
>van helmonts insitance that the archeus sickened because it was impregnated
>with
>the wrong idea (origin of the computer virus?) and that alchemical medicines
>were about reimposing the right idea (programme) in the archeus so that it
>would
>work well, and sickness would be cured. And then van helmont talks, if i
>remember correctly (and i'm not checking yet so as not to ruin an idea!) about
>the IMAGE in this context.
>
>And i wondered,.... One of my aquaintances *claims* to make medicines by
>impregnating his thoughts on liquids.....
>
>So i wondered again, if in fact the use of images in alchemy was not the exact
>opposite of that proposed by Jung (ie that the alchemist passively projects
>onto
>the retort, which stimulates interior phantasy)- that in fact the images of
>lions and dragons were images of potency that were to be deliberatly projected
>upon the working substance, in order to impregnate its "vibrations" with the
>right qualities....
>
>jon
>
>
>To be honest Jon, I have had the exact same thoughts, but I work with
Flower Esences and radionics so i't's not surprising. You make some very
good points but the imaging has to come from somewhere. In medicinal work
you can `impregnate' for want of a better term, thoughts and concepts in
some elixirs, though their potency would be very low. In alchemy The imagery
you impregante must come from somewhere to loop back into the experiment.
Possibly Jung's collective unconscious, when we focus on what we want then
tap into something either consciously or not.

Pat zalewski

Sun Feb 04 14:53:05 1996
Subject: 0153 Additions to the Archive

Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 18:10:22 +1100
From: Petra Gottlieb

Dear Adam McLean,
Talking about additions to the Archives on your Alchemical Web site,
please let me make the following suggestions.
Since we are all collectors more or less of alchemical treatises, how about
letting some of the most famous ones appear on the site, those of Khunrath,
Maier, Sandivog, and many more which are not necessarily in the Hermetic
Museum. If space is limited, one could rotate them, so that only a few can
be read for a certain time and downloaded.

"COULD WE IMPOSE ON YOU, ADAM , TO PROVIDE US WITH SUCH TREASURES? I am sure
your resources must be unlimited judging from your extensive publications.

I am particularly interested in the "Crowning of Nature" which you said will
appear shortly. Could you also, or anyone, help me with:
>>B.G. von Welling's Opus Mago-Cabbalisticum et Theosophicum<<
if it is available in German or English.

Then I have one more request for all subscribers in the UK:
I am looking for a book called: "Goethe, the Alchemist" by
Dr. Ronald D. Gray of Cambridge University.
Cambridge: University Press, 1952
Is this book still available? If so where? Please let me know.
---
PETRA CHRISTIANE GOTTLIEB

>>OHNE LIEBE KEINE KUNST!<< (Paracelsus)
WITHOUT LOVE THERE IS NO ART!

Sun Feb 04 14:53:16 1996
Subject: 0154 Alchemical resources in Germany

Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 16:00:33 +1100
From: Petra Gottlieb

Matthias Zeiner:
If I were in your shoes I would first of all contact:
*) The C.G. Jung Institute in Zurich. (Sorry I can't find the address) I am
sure they have an extensive library of alchemical manuscripts, or at least
they could tell you the availability and location of such writings.
*) A key name in Alchemy in Germany is Alexancer von Bernus, an
iatrochemist, and distant relative of Goethe. He published a view books. It
is worth to inquire there. He founded the Soluna Laboratories in
Donaumunster, Bavaria producing his spagyric medications based on Paracelsus
alchemical studies.
*)And there must be people in Germany recognising Goethe as the greatest
alchemist of all times. Faust I and II "IS" in fact the Opus Minor & Magnus.
Bei dieser Gelegenheit, darf auch ich um einen Gefallen bitten? Gibt es
irgendwelche Bucher, Artikel, Meinungen, Seminarschreiben, Studien, die
uber "Goethe als Alchemisten" Zeugnis ablegen? Ich ware Ihnen fur die
kleinste Information dankbar. Ich komme namlich im Juni nach Deutschland
(Munchen), dann werde ich mir einiges an Ort und Stelle kaufen konnen.

---
Petra Christiane Gottlieb
>>OHNE LIEBE KEINE KUNST!<< (Paracelsus)
WITHOUT LOVE THERE IS NO ART!

Sun Feb 04 15:43:02 1996
Subject: 0155 Additions to the Archive

Petra Gottlieb writes,

>Since we are all collectors more or less of alchemical treatises, how about
>letting some of the most famous ones appear on the site, those of Khunrath,
>Maier, Sandivog, and many more which are not necessarily in the Hermetic
>Museum. If space is limited, one could rotate them, so that only a few can
>be read for a certain time and downloaded.

I have every wish to see these items placed onto the Web site, however, I have a lot of work to do and cannot always find the time to type out material for the Web site. What can be scanned in and read using an optically character recognition program has been done, however, most of the important alchemical material (and items such as you mention) has not been published in modern books, so cannot be scanned in this way but laboriously typed in.
I have access to most printed books on alchemy here in Glasgow, but the library cannot at the moment provide me with photocopies of these books so I must work from the actual book itself. There was no shortage of people volunteering to transcribe items for the Web site, but I just cannot get the necesary photocopies. Items in the library can be microfilmed but since few people have access to a microfilm reader in their own home this is not much use as far as transcriptions are concerned. So the main problem is bringing the people willing to translate and transcribe items in touch with the material.

I am always adding items, and over the years this virtual library will grow and grow, but it will take time and a great deal of hard work.

Adam McLean

Sun Feb 04 15:47:32 1996
Subject: 0156 Alchemical Texts

Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 01:55:22 +1100
From:Petra Gottlieb

Matthias Zeiner:
Did you know that you can download various texts from this web site?
Allerdings nur in englisch: Khunrath, Maier and many more at URL address:
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/vartexts.html
Sendivagius: http://www.levity.com/alchemy/Sendivog.html
Die besten Grusse von
---
PETRA CHRISTIANE GOTTLIEB

>>OHNE LIEBE KEINE KUNST!<< (Paracelsus)
WITHOUT LOVE THERE IS NO ART!

Sun Feb 04 17:39:54 1996
Subject: 0157 Romancing the stone

Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 08:55:39 -0700
From: leslie grollman

in my tradition, all is studied in the context of four worlds - the
physical, the emotional, the intellectual, and the spiritual/mystical.
seeking this kind of balance, leads to wholeness. achieving the stone
on only level is not enough. doesn't the real power come when the stone
has been achieved on all four levels?
i am glad that charlie has not decided to continue. he may achieve the
stone on the physical level - but it is obvious by his arrogance he will
have a very long way to go for the 'real thing'.
leslie

Sun Feb 04 17:40:12 1996
Subject: 0158 Aurum potabile and Hans Nintzl

Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 08:48:52 -0800 (PST)
From: kunkin

>Date: Wed, 31 Jan 96 09:04:56 CST
>From: dan hill
>
>
>I tried some of the potable gold at Hanz N`s House a few years ago.
>It had almost a sparkling feel on my tongue. Does anyone know what
>is actually in the liquid and is it safe? All I had was a few drops
>under the tongue but I felt brave that day.
>
>
>LVX

I believe it was a homeopathic gold chloride and, therefore, quite safe.
Chemical Gold Chloride is used as a medication for arthritis by some
doctors and that is not safe because the metallic gold precipitates out in
the human body because of the ph of the body.

Incidentally, the much beloved wife of Hans, Jody, passed on recently and
Hans could use some emotional support from his many friends around the
world. His phone is 214-238-9877. I believe he is still selling photocopies
of alchemical manuscripts and those who would like to build up their
libraries can ask him for a list. He is not on-line. Cordially, Art Kunkin

Art Kunkin
Publisher and Editor, World Wide Free Press
URL: http://www.wwfreepress.com/
Voice: 310-455-2451 E-Mail: kunkin@cinenet.net
Snail Mail: 115 S. Topanga Canyon Blvd, Suite #166

Topanga, CA 90290, U.S.A.
"It's Never Too Late To Have A Happy Childhood"
(Ask me how!)

Sun Feb 04 17:40:21 1996
Subject: 0159 Locating the prima materia - Maury

Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 10:15:38 -0700
From: leslie grollman

maury - burden? au contraire!!!!!!!!!!!! the richness of your ideas go to
my very core!
the serpent - transformation. the meeting of our opposites - the beautiful
on one end and the horrific on the other - to create wholeness. (stated
VERY simply).
as a cranio-sacral therapist, i understand (and am 'understanding' more with
each experience of this work)the profound relationship between the
cerebro-spinal system, and the unconscious. but what about visions? i mean
the ones i have when i 'look into' my client? what i see is not a
projection of me onto them. i have done my own process - what i see is
their emotional state - or sometimes, it is a vision of their
physical-state-to-come. any ideas? if you would like, please send me your
e-mail address so that i may contact you directly - in case my desire for
discussion of this topic (and possibly others) may not fall under the
direction of this forum.

yours,
leslie
leslieg@indirect.com

Mon Feb 05 19:13:06 1996
Subject: 0160 Locating the prima materia (3)

Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 10:21:25 -0800
From: joshua geller

> Flamel writes:

[lots of thoughtful stuff]

> As is well known,
> alchemists were often suspected of working with every kind of
> unappetizing material, and they did actually work with excrement.
> Sometimes a parallel was drawn between the prima materia and
> excrement, or even that it was to be found in human faeces, or that
> it originated in the same way, or could be found in old privies.
> In this respect, therefore, it is the cheapest thing, which is cast
> out and rejected, and can be found at every street corner. Petrus
> of Zalento says the prima materia is a white dove, but that its
> origin is of the basest, and that it can be found in stables and in
> kitchen waste....

I thought that this was literal reference to the use of nitrates in
solvents.

josh

Mon Feb 05 19:14:05 1996
Subject: 0161 Hudson again

Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 14:12:40 -0500
From: Cyberinga

At present Hudson in focusing his work on the production facility (due to be
in full-scale production December 1997). He is no longer making public
appearances (his last being Vancouver, B.C.).

In November 1995, Hudson spoke in Tampa, FL. The proceedings of both lecture
and workshop were taped. Having listened to every tape available, i must say
that this presentation was by far the most "scientifically based" of all due
to the number of physicsts in the audience. The tapes (both audio and video)
are recommended by Hudson and available through Jade Graphics (813) 845-5233.
Included are closeups of the substantial number overhead transparencies
presented during his workshop.

The most recent development is a series of tests which are scheduled to take
place within the next few weeks. The tests will be performed on Hudson's
ORMEs product as well as others claiming to have the same properties (namely
Vhibuti and Etherium Gold).

The tests, to be perfomed here in Fla, intend to demonstrate that the
material indeed DOES leave this dimension and return (in tact) under certain
circumstances. Additionally, a test to identify the monoatomic elements
(spectroscopically) present in the substances is scheduled. This event will
be video taped.

Currently, i have compiled an email list of others interested in the Hudson
(and related) work. Please email me if you'd like to be added to the list.

binga
cyberinga@aol.com

Mon Feb 05 19:16:22 1996
Subject: 0162 Aurum Potabile

Date: Sun, 4 Feb 96 23:55:09 PST
From: A.J.Le Sage

Yes I would agree this is the true potable gold
of Paracelcus. I would venture further that
until the tinture is gained all "Lab" work
is chemistry not alchemy. There is much I
do not unserstand and so this suggestion maybe
incorrect but the more I think on it the more
it makes sense.

Regards A
---------------Original Message---------------
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 20:00:42 -0500 (EST)
From: John Reid

My understanding about aurum potable is that it contains no traces of gold
whatsoever. The idea is to get the salts of gold and extract from them a
red tincture. From this tincture can be distilled a yellow to red colored
oil, aka aurum potable.

Just dissolving gold into some solution will not do, because the toxic
properties of gold have not been removed. I have never made aurum potable,
but I have made the oils of Iron, copper, lead and antimony. When made
properly these substances contain no traces of the mineral in question.
This has been verified by spectroanlysis, gas and high pressure
chromotography, and atomic absorbtion that is sensitive enough to detects
in parts per trillion.

The problem with gold is that once it is taken out of the dissolving
medium the salts tend to go back into metallic form. This is why the
Philosophers Mercury is needed, it completly opens and dissolves the gold
yeilding up its soul, from which the oil of gold can be separated. At
least this is what the ancients claim.
Your Brother and Servant
John H. Reid III

Mon Feb 05 19:17:57 1996
Subject: 0163 Additions to the Archive

Date: Sun, 04 Feb 1996 21:04:02 -0500
From: jerry

Alchemy forum wrote:
>
> Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 18:10:22 +1100
> From: Petra Gottlieb
>
> Dear Adam McLean,

[...snip...]

> Since we are all collectors more or less of alchemical treatises, how about
> letting some of the most famous ones appear on the site, those of Khunrath,
> Maier, Sandivog, and many more which are not necessarily in the Hermetic
> Museum. If space is limited, one could rotate them, so that only a few can
> be read for a certain time and downloaded.

[...snip...]

I am willing and prepared to help transcribing any alchemical texts in English,
French, German, or Latin if you (I mean people on the web) provide me with
a copy. Anyway, I hope I will finish transcribing the Hermetic Museum sometime
in March. Also, there is the Jean Dague's page out there where, in short future,
you can find a French transcrip of Philalete's Open Entrance to the Palace of
the King.

Moreover, if this project of mass-transcriptions goes beyond our disk spaces,
I am willing to offer space on my disk (about 10 Meg, as I was told by my provider)
if Adam runs out of space. If you people do the same, and help with transcriptions
and/or with providing copies of rare prints, we could build the largest (and the
greatest) virtual library of alchemical books in the world ever. This would
require some coordination, probably by Adam.

Jerry

Mon Feb 05 19:18:51 1996
Subject: 0164 Additions to the Archive

Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 00:58:09 -0500 (EST)
From: hyson

Perhaps the solution is a series of image files that are on the web site.
MAny documents scanned at about 100 dpi would be readable.
If they are colored, manuscript books, a color archive would preserve most
of the information and beauty of the works.
Aloha
Michael

Mon Feb 05 19:20:10 1996
Subject: 0165 Locating the prima materia

Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 09:52:00 +0000
From: susan

Many thanks Maury for the new material on the serpent etc. Printed out
immediately and curled up with!

LVX, Susan

Mon Feb 05 19:21:56 1996
Subject: 0166 Christianity and Alchemy

From: John E. Myers
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 8:48:14 EST5EDT

>I'm just trying to say something here - I know >alchemy
>seems like a religion in that it contains beliefs, and I know that the rules
>of
>science change over the centuries - but surely Alchemy was the science of
>the
>Medieval age and thus atttacked by the Church as a threat to its authority.
>
On the other hand, there were popes who practised Alchemy, though
usually behind locked doors.

J.E.M. / "All things come to * *
myersj@gactr.uga.edu / he who waits." * * * *
alt.immortal / I have time. * * *
* * * *
* *

Mon Feb 05 19:23:00 1996
Subject: 0167 Alchemy and Electricity -Reply

Date: Mon, 05 Feb 1996 08:49:34 -0500
From: Gilbert Arnold

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 09:23:11 +0100
From: Van den Bossche Peter

Do any of you know about alchemical interpretations of Electricity?
Although the classical books predate the electric age, I found an
interesting statement in Fulcanelli (Demeures), which I quote (in French;
accents omitted). It states the relationship between electricity, metals and
fire.

Le fluide electrique, silencieux, obscur et froid, parcourt son conducteur
metallique sans l'influencer autrement ni manifester son passage. Mais,
vient-il a rencontrer une resistance, l'energie se revele aussitot avec les
qualites et sous l'aspect du feu. Un filament de lampe devient
incandescent, le charbon de cornue s'embrase, le fil metallique le plus
refractaire fond sur-le-champ. Or, l'electricite n'est-elle pas un feu veritable,
un feu en puissance? D'ou tire-t-elle son origine, sinon de la decomposition
(batteries) ou la desagregation (dynamos) des metaux, corps eminemment
charges du principe igne?

Are any further references known?

Peter

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Solazaref wrote about the above. I have not tested his protocols with
lightning. You can find his books in most esototeric bookstores in France.

Blessings,

+Gilbert

Mon Feb 05 19:26:46 1996
Subject: 0168 Rosarium philosophorum

Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 09:06:28 -0600
From: George Randall Leake III

>From: "Charla J. Williams"
>A friend works with a different order of elements for 12 different arts,
>including alchemy, astrology, and tarot. He said he read about this in an
>old German Rosicrucian Book. Does this sound familiar to anyone?
***
this does sound vaguely familiar--can you clarify what you mean by "a
different order of elements"??

-G.Leake, 512-471-9117

"To be ignorant of what occurred before you were born is to remain always a
child."
-Cicero
"Oh age! oh letters! It is a joy to be alive!...Woe to you, barbarians!"
-Ulrich von Hutten, 1518, Poet Laureate of the German Empire

Mon Feb 05 19:27:35 1996
Subject: 0169 John Dee

Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 09:24:54 -0600
From: George Randall Leake III

I know this might be slightly off the topic of alchemy for some of you, but
a new scholar to the field here in Texas is researching an area I barely
can advise him on. Just wondering if anyone can steer us in the right
direction.

He's researching the Enochian language used by John Dee and how it was used
in his astral communications. I've heard bad things about a number of books
with "John Dee" in the title, and that many have adopted his ideas to some
other system.

-G.Leake, 512-471-9117 taliesin@mail.utexas.edu

"To be ignorant of what occurred before you were born is to remain always a
child."
-Cicero
"Oh age! oh letters! It is a joy to be alive!...Woe to you, barbarians!"
-Ulrich von Hutten, 1518, Poet Laureate of the German Empire

Mon Feb 05 19:28:41 1996
Subject: 0170 Cleopatra the alchemist

Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 09:52:37 -0600
From: George Randall Leake III

Hello--just wondering if you can shed any light on this persona and
manuscript at all:

>!I was writing because I'm in the midst of preparing a display on noteable
>!women for women's history day/week/month ... and I've read some things
>!about Cleopatra the alchemist. She wrote a manuscript, The Chrysopeia,
>!of which a 10th or 11th c. copy exists (somewhere ... I haven't found it
>!on OCLC and don't have access to RLIN). She is apparently mentioned with
>!"great respect" in the Arabic encyclopaedia Kitab Fihrist

-G.Leake, 512-471-9117 taliesin@mail.utexas.edu

"To be ignorant of what occurred before you were born is to remain always a
child."
-Cicero
"Oh age! oh letters! It is a joy to be alive!...Woe to you, barbarians!"
-Ulrich von Hutten, 1518, Poet Laureate of the German Empire

Mon Feb 05 19:29:47 1996
Subject: 0171 Belief is Error

Date: Mon, 5 Feb 96 16:26:44 PST
From: A.J.Le Sage

But what of Faith?

---------------Original Message---------------
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 09:46:21 +1100
From: Petra Gottlieb

Belief is error if it just stays believe and not becomes conviction.
The Grail Message "In the Light of Truth" starts in this way:

FOR YOUR GUIDANCE! THE BANDAGE FALLS, and belief becomes conviction.
Liberation and redemption lie only in CONVICTION...
extraneous aids for this, in the

Mon Feb 05 19:32:17 1996
Subject: 0172 Questions for YOU ...

Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 11:05:26 -0600
From: George Randall Leake III

>From: A.J.Le Sage
>Could it be true that the illigitimate child of Alchemy
>was the Church of Rome. If the rose is a symbol of
>spirit and the cross a symbol of matter then is the rose
>on the cross is spirit joined with matter, the physical
>goal of the Alchemest.

***this could have merit. How about alchemical imagery in the Church? Such
as the depiction of the Chymical Wedding on the facade of the Chartres
Cathedral?

-G.Leake, 512-471-9117 taliesin@mail.utexas.edu

"To be ignorant of what occurred before you were born is to remain always a
child."
-Cicero
"Oh age! oh letters! It is a joy to be alive!...Woe to you, barbarians!"
-Ulrich von Hutten, 1518, Poet Laureate of the German Empire

Mon Feb 05 19:50:17 1996
Subject: 0173 Rosicrucians?

Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 11:21:29 -0600
From: George Randall Leake III

>Tom Hennesey writes-->
>I am not sure whether they are in any way 'connected'.. to the
>Templars?.. because what I've read is the Templars and Rosicrucians are
>somehow possibly both of the 'mystic'.. way?
***yes, that is generally accepted

>The book contains much about crystals, magnetism and general medical
>information. It seems to reflect 'mystical'.. symbolism.

***which book?

-G.Leake, 512-471-9117 taliesin@mail.utexas.edu

"To be ignorant of what occurred before you were born is to remain always a
child."
-Cicero
"Oh age! oh letters! It is a joy to be alive!...Woe to you, barbarians!"
-Ulrich von Hutten, 1518, Poet Laureate of the German Empire

Mon Feb 05 19:52:22 1996
Subject: 0174 Christianity and Alchemy

Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 11:36:38 -0600
From: George Randall Leake III)

>From: MARVIN LOWES <73551.655@compuserve.com>
>No way! The divison is between Christianity and Alchemy is crucial.
*course I guess it would help if I'd been a bit more specific about what I
meant by "Christianity"

>Alchemy is a science with experiments that can be consistently recreated.
*I have trouble with this--I don't think *everybody* can reproduce some of
its "experiments"

>Relgion is a step in the dark, a never to be proved belief.
*well, there's more to Christianity than its religious aspects; and more
than one approach to the teachings of the bible.

>Please don't flame me.
***Please don't take anything I'm saying as a flame

>I'm just trying to say something here - I know alchemy
>seems like a religion in that it contains beliefs, and I know that the rules of
>science change over the centuries - but surely Alchemy was the science of the
>Medieval age and thus atttacked by the Church as a threat to its authority.
***certainly Alchemy was *a* science, and a not-very-commonly-practiced one
during the Middle Ages. I must say I have trouble with the term "religion",
because it implies accepting someone else's point of view about
spirituality. If one takes the p.o.v. that salvation in the Christian sense
comes as a result of a *personal* relationship with Christ, is that not
similar to the process of alchemical purification in the spiritual sense?
Both are personal quests, and guidance from other human beings are not
enough.

>Maybe the problem with our perception comes becayse we have been raised in a
>world where alchemy is no longer a science but virtually a fringe religion or
>cult, an alternative to Christianity on the modern pallatte of religions?
***personally, I think the problem has to do with modern approaches to all
three. Science is too obsessed with repeating experiments when obviously
this is troublesome if not impossible with material at the quantum level; I
think many religions have lost their essence, and I witness this every year
I spend with my family in Dallas Texas who are love Christmas because it
celebrates materialism; and I think I've already made my point about
alchemy, namely that it is misunderstood, perhaps due to our
taken-for-granted notions about science and religion, but also perhaps
because we cannot read the symbolism properly.

>I say this pleading that I am not trying to insult anyone
***none taken from me--and please none intended (though my step-sister
might be if she reads what I wrote above)

>In fact, could the power of alchemy - and the power of religion - come from
>their unalterably opposed heritage - their " forms of life"?
***clearly both came to the West from the Southeastern Meditteranean from
the same time period.

-G.Leake, 512-471-9117 taliesin@mail.utexas.edu

"To be ignorant of what occurred before you were born is to remain always a
child."
-Cicero
"Oh age! oh letters! It is a joy to be alive!...Woe to you, barbarians!"
-Ulrich von Hutten, 1518, Poet Laureate of the German Empire

Mon Feb 05 20:04:23 1996
Subject: 0175 Alchemy and Electricity

Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 20:47:51 +0100
From: Van den Bossche Peter

Jon Marshall mentioned a book by

>ernst benz called *Theology of electricty*, pickwick publications 1989

Does anyone know this book is still available? I'll be going to London in a
few weeks and will have some hours to browse the bookshops. Any idea where
I could find it? Any recommended London bookshop for hermetic and
alchemical stuff?

Peter

********************************************************

Van den Bossche Peter
CITELEC
VUB-ETEC
Pleinlaan 2
B-1050 BRUSSEL

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Tue Feb 06 09:32:33 1996
Subject: 0176 Mandragora

Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 13:38:09 +1100 (EST)
From: Gionni Di Gravio>

Dear People,

Is anyone familiar with a work by Gustave Le Rouge on the Mandragora?

Sincerely,

`.'
Gionni Di Gravio ( * )
ulgd@dewey.newcastle.edu.au -+-
University of Newcastle, Australia .^:^.

Tue Feb 06 09:32:47 1996
Subject: 0177 By Faith alone

Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 16:05:08 +1100
From: Petra Gottlieb

A.J. Le Sage wrote: But what of Faith? in answer to my "Belief is error if
it just stays believe and not becomes conviction.

The "dogma" laid down by the church about Martin Luther's "By faith alone"
has given rise to much misunderstanding, and in all these centuries it could
never be satisfactorily explained. Lutherans are now reproached with being
no longer capable even of making Luther's basic idea of justification
through faith understandable to men.
Luther in his struggle with the churches found support in the teaching of
Paul, that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law (Rom.
3,28), for applied to his position they meant: "Justification before God
comes from faith, NOT FROM THE WORKS OF THE CHURCH."
Paul himself supplements his teaching of justification when he writes in his
Epistle to the Galations: "For in Christ availeth only faith, WHICH WORKS BY
LOVE (Gal. 5.6). Hence faith must be transformed into deed, and this deed
must be filled with love.
Even James in his Epistle in the NT wrote as if to amend and clarify Paul's
view: "By works was faith made perfect" (2, 22); "Ye see then how that by
works a man is justified, and not by faith alone" (2, 24); "For as the body
without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also" (2, 26).

Belief remains a "blind faith" if it has not become conviction.
---
PETRA CHRISTIANE GOTTLIEB
petrag@iaccess.com.au

>>OHNE LIEBE KEINE KUNST!<< (Paracelsus)
WITHOUT LOVE THERE IS NO ART!

Tue Feb 06 09:33:03 1996
Subject: 0178 Alchemy and Electricity

Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 22:41:36 -0800
From: Josh

Watkins on Charing Cross is very good. I've found lots of good stuff in the
used bookshops around Leicester Square, too....

/jcs

>Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 20:47:51 +0100
>From: Van den Bossche Peter
>
>
>Jon Marshall mentioned a book by
>
>>ernst benz called *Theology of electricty*, pickwick publications 1989
>
>Does anyone know this book is still available? I'll be going to London in a
>few weeks and will have some hours to browse the bookshops. Any idea where
>I could find it? Any recommended London bookshop for hermetic and
>alchemical stuff?
>
>Peter

Tue Feb 06 09:52:25 1996
Subject: 0179 Alchemy and Electricity

Date: 06 Feb 96 04:03:33 EST
From: Marcus Williamson

Peter,

> Does anyone know this book is still available? I'll be going to
> London in a few weeks and will have some hours to browse the
> bookshops. Any idea where I could find it? Any recommended London
> bookshop for hermetic and alchemical stuff?

Adam has a list of Publishers and Bookdealers on his site at :

http://www.levity.com/alchemy/publishr.html

If you're going to be in London I'd suggest :

Watkins Books, Cecil Court, Off Charing Cross Road
Compendium, Camden High Street (Near Camden Lock)

regards
Marcus
Duesseldorf, Germany
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/marcus_williamson

Tue Feb 06 14:03:31 1996
Subject: 0180 GERMAN Alchemical resources in Germany

From: Matthias Zeiner
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 96 14:16:12 +0700

Thank you all who responded. I got a lot of valuable information!

For Petra:

Es scheint nicht viel Literatur uber Goethes Beschaftigung mit Alchemie zu
geben. In Helmut Gebelein, Alchemie, Munchen 1991, findet sich ein kurzer
Abschnitt uber Goethe und Alchemie, besonders im Hinblick auf Faust als
alchemistisches Drama. Von Interesse koennten auch Goethes diverse
Briefwechsel sein, Gebelein zitiert daraus.
Ich denke, da! vielleicht Rudolf Steiner, der sich ja sehr intensiv mit
Goethe befa!t hat, auch etwas uber Goethe und die hermetische Tradion
geschrieben hat. Ich glaube, auch C.G. Jung hat sich mit Goethe befa!t.
Hier noch ein Buchtitel, den ich aus einer Datenbank gezogen habe:
Raphael, Alice: Goethe und der Stein der Weisen 1990, Verl. Anton Weber.

Ich hoffe, dies ist eine kleine Hilfe.
Viele Gru!e

Matthias Zeiner

Tue Feb 06 15:24:03 1996
Subject: 0181 Additions to the Archive

Michael Hyson wrote:

>Perhaps the solution is a series of image files that are on the web site.
>Many documents scanned at about 100 dpi would be readable.
>If they are colored, manuscript books, a color archive would preserve most
>of the information and beauty of the works.

I wish it were so simple. I have of course considered this possibility. The problems are:-

Firstly, there remains the difficulty of getting the original image. No libraries with collections of alchemical material will allow conventional photocopying of manuscripts or early books, and the same applies to scanning, as this presents the same conservation problems (i.e. placing bound volumes face down on a flat sheet of glass). So how do we get the scanned images in the first place? Digital cameras are no use at present as their low resolution does not make it easy to capture readable text. There are also copyright problems with the public distribution of images. Some libraries will want to charge a reproduction fee. This does not apply to the text in an early book or manuscript as the text itself in not copyright. One can transcribe this text without incurring copyright fees, but one cannot distribute an image of the text without fees as this will normally be copyright.

Secondly, one cannot read manuscript handwriting or most early book text at 100 dots per inch. One would have to go to 200 dpi at the very least to make anything readable, and to over 300 dpi for some handwriting. For manuscript material one would have to scan at 256 colours, with books one could probably get away with 16 gray scales. This would, however, give rise to very large files. Not everyone has a 256 colour screen or one which handles 16 grays, so when displayed these would be dithered by their video driving software for their 16 colour card. Such dithered images are usually impossible to read.

Thirdly, these large image files, - we are talking of upwards of 1 megabyte a page for 256 colour graphics - would take a seriously long time to download over a 14,400 modem, probably 5 or 10 minutes a page, and longer at peak traffic times. Do many people have the patience to wait that long? There are long delays at present accessing those sites which use fancy textured backgrounds and button images.

Fourthly, these files would take up an enormous space on the server. A 150 page book would use about 150 megabytes. At the moment I pay �10 per megabyte of disc space a year. One would need many thousands of pounds a year to have a substantial library of hermetic material on line in image form. The service provider would find much of his web bandwidth used up by my site, and would probably withdraw service from me, when most of his other customers complained about slow access to the web.

So at the moment image files are, regrettably, not a solution. When we can all have 100k lines into our homes and the Internet hardware is considerably upgraded, it may be possible to go down the road of image files. For now the best solution is for people to transcribe the texts.

With my best wishes,

Adam McLean

Tue Feb 06 15:29:12 1996
Subject: 0182 Answers, Questions?

Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 09:43:24 -0500
From: Clinton R. Armitage

Thank you Todd R. Rossman:
>
>He who knows does not speak.
>He who speaks does not know.
>Block all the passages!
>Shut all the doors!
>Blunt all edges!
>Untie all tangles!
>Harmonize all lights!
>Unite the worlds into one whole!
>This is called the Mystical Whole,
>Which you cannot court after nor shun,
>Benefit nor harm, honour nor humble.
>Therefore, it is the Highest of the world.
>
>........... I would argue that Lao Tzu did an admirable job of saying so
much with so little!

********************************************************************************

EAST and WEST:

Why the three wise men from the EAST to announce the birth of the
coming Christ to the WEST?

Why so many occultists and/or alchemists from the WEST
traveling to the EAST in the days when books and
translations were few?

Are the East AND the West essential ingredients for the
alchemists crucible in the search for the Golden Fleece-
from a Westerners perspective ?

The DUALITY in all things?

"Unite the Worlds into one whole!"????

Thank you Lau Tzu, your words are a source of
everlasting joy to me.

Tue Feb 06 15:32:05 1996
Subject: 0183 Locating the prima materia

Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 08:52:50 -0600
From: George Randall Leake III

***I hate to seem like a grouch, but I'm wondering whether messages of this
nature are necessary on the alchemy forum. Normally I would do what I'd
suggest others to do in these cases (but Susan's email address is nowhere
in the posting)--send a one on one message rather than clutter up our
mailboxes with junk mail.
Thank you.
>Many thanks Maury for the new material on the serpent etc. Printed out
>immediately and curled up with!

-G.Leake, 512-471-9117 taliesin@mail.utexas.edu

"To be ignorant of what occurred before you were born is to remain always a
child."
-Cicero
"Oh age! oh letters! It is a joy to be alive!...Woe to you, barbarians!"
-Ulrich von Hutten, 1518, Poet Laureate of the German Empire

Tue Feb 06 15:42:04 1996
Subject: 0184 Privacy on the alchemy forum

Many of you may have noticed that I am now removing your E-mail address from your post when it is sent out to the forum. This is because a number of people have requested this, as they do not want to be directly contacted by others on the forum.

If you do not mind others having your E-mail address, and indeed want to encourage people to write direct to you, please put this after your signature, as I will only remove the automatic insertion made by the mail program in the fields at the top of the message.

My best wishes,

Adam McLean
alchemy@colloquium.co.uk

Tue Feb 06 18:26:49 1996
Subject: 0185 Alchemy and the bible

Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 10:54:21 +0001 (EST)
From: Thomas D Sola

On Wed, 31 Jan 1996, Alchemy forum wrote:

> Date: 31 Jan 96 12:54:42 EST
> From: Beat Krummenacher
>
>
> 1) Moses and the golden calf: The bible says, that Moses took the golden
> calf, burnt it and gave it to drink the people. After that the people were
> opened the eyes, and it recognized, that it had wrong dealt.
>
> This passage is often cited by alchemists of past centuries as evidence for
> alchemy in the bible. But how the noble gold can be burnt and drink?

><...snip...>

> Lapis
>

Looking at this passage from a spiritual point of view rather than a
practical/physical stand, I see this in a little different light. I
would (off-hand and in a nut shell) say Moses took the golden calf (i.e.
mundane gold, the element already present in nature that needs refinement
and sepparation from the dross that comes with it but gold in the
spiritual sense) burnt it (that is to say refined it within his own
reviberatory furnace sepparating the dross so as to make it pure) and
made it liquid (figure of speach to go along with the metaphor already in
progress, also to denote that it is in such a state as to me devided and
consumed amongst a number of receiving vessels, be they containers or
people) giving it unto his people to "drink" (or much like zen masters
are said to be able to "force" enlightenment on the adepts through
physical contact, that is to say a transference of enlightened energy to
ignite a similar occurance in the adept).

One thing we must keep in mind is to read the above related passage
within the context of it's printing. That in mind I surmize that the
golden calf, which was made of the jewlry and whatever gold the people
had with them was impure gold and as such was worshiped by all the son's
of Levi. This was the sin that they saw as doing wrong. They worshiped
an impure idea and so were impure themselves and when Moses came down (with
the ten commandments) from sinai he was able to purify the gold and
"enlighten" the people with its wisdom.

Just a note, in my copy of the bible--a standard King James--it says he
melted the gold and made it into a powder. He then mixed the powder with
water and gave it for drink.

Thomas

Tue Feb 06 18:28:30 1996
Subject: 0186 Alchemy and Electricity

Date: Tue, 06 Feb 1996 09:05:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: LeGrand Cinq-Mars

US Books in Print lists

Contributors: Stillings, Dennis (Introduction by); Taraba, Wolfgang
(Translator)
Title: The Theology of Electricity: On the Encounter and Dialogue
Between Theology and the Natural Sciences in the Seventeenth and
Eighteenth Centuries
Publisher: Pickwick Publications
Year: 1990
Series: Princeton Theological Monograph Ser. Vol. No. 19
Pages: xix, 108p.
ISBN/Price: 0-915138-92-1 Trade Paper $19.95
Subj (BIP): THEOLOGY-DOCTRINAL-HISTORY-18TH-CENTURY
Subj (Pbk): RELIGION-GENERAL

------

As usual, subject headings are not as accurate as they might be in BIP.
A local library gives in addition

Electricity -- Religious-aspects -- Christianity --
History-of-doctrines -- 17th-century.
Magnetism -- Religious-aspects -- Christianity --
History-of-doctrines -- 17th-century.
Electricity -- Religious-aspects -- Christianity --
History-of-doctrines -- 18th-century.
Magnetism -- Religious-aspects -- Christianity --
History-of-doctrines -- 18th-century.

"Theology" can cover a lot of ground. As an illustration, here
is a catalogue entry for another of his books.

Author: Benz, Ernst, 1907-.
Unif. Title: [Sources mystiques de la philosophie romantique allemande
English.].
Title: The mystical sources of German romantic philosophy / by Ernst
Benz ; translated by Blair R. Reynolds and Eunice M Paul.
Pub. Info.: Allison Park, Pa. : Pickwick Publications, 1983.
Phy Descript: 132 p. ; 22 cm.
Notes: Translation of: Les sources mystiques de la philosophie
romantique allemande.
Includes bibliographical references and index.
LC Subject: Bohme-Jakob-1575-1624 -- Influence.
Saint-Martin-Louis-Claude-de-1743-1803.
Philosophy-German -- 19th-century.
Idealism.
Romanticism -- Germany.
Mysticism -- Germany.
Author/Title: Benz, Ernst, 1907-. Sources mystiques de la philosophie
romantique allemande. English.

LeGrand Cinq-Mars
rjb@u.washington.edu

Tue Feb 06 19:00:08 1996
Subject: 0187 Dave Hudson lecture

Mark McWilliams sent me a transcription of a lecture given by Dave Hudson at the Northwest Service Center in Portland, Oregon on July 28, 1995.
This document was orignally found on the KeelyNet BBS (keelynet@ix.netcom.com).

As it is quite long (about 70K), I have decided to place it onto the Web site under the alchemy forum archives as 'Hudson Lecture'. As it is a transcription of a lecture it does give us an insight into Dave Hudson's personality as well as the ideas he is pursuing.

Adam McLean

Tue Feb 06 19:49:11 1996
Subject: 0188 First book on Alchemy

Date: 6 Feb 96 18:24:47 GMT
From: STUART INMAN

AS this question still seems to be getting replies, I thought it
worth putting in my two penn'oth.

Almost certainly the first book on the subject I read was Israel
Regardie's Philosopher's Stone. This led me to read Jung, which was
suggestive, but for me at any rate, also a dead end.

Around about 1978 a friend lent me his two-volume edition of
Paracelsus. He promptly vanished, almost as thoroughly as these
wandering adepts were supposed to, although it was rumoured that the
police were the main reason for his disappearance. In any case, I
tried reading the books, but was all too frequently flummoxed by the
combination of the absstruse-seeming symbolism and Waite's
translating style.

It was not until I developed my interest in Surrealism that I found
it worthwhile to read Fulcanelli. This became a new beginning for me,
not least because I found myself equally incapable of believing or
not believing him. Whatever claims there were of his mysterious
nature and abilities seemed too far-fetched for my sceptical nature,
but impossible to dismiss entirely because he really seemed to know
what he was talking about. If this was a scam, it was an unusually
good one, to my mind at any rate.

And the first book I really felt that I began to underthe picture.< Lambspringk. I can't say that I have any very illuminating insights
on this work, but it has been some sort of a key for me.

In a sense then all these works have been first books because they
led me to different understandings of the Great Work. If I knew
bugger all about Chemistry I might have more dimensions to this
feeble understanding of mine, who knows?

Stuart

Wed Feb 07 09:25:55 1996
Subject: 0189 Alchemy and Electricity

Date: Tue, 6 Feb 96 22:48:57 PST
From: A.J.Le Sage

Watkins Bookshop has the best secondhand
book selction in the land.

---------------Original Message---------------
Date: 06 Feb 96 04:03:33 EST
From: Marcus Williamson

Peter,

> Does anyone know this book is still available? I'll be going to
> London in a few weeks and will have some hours to browse the
> bookshops. Any idea where I could find it? Any recommended London
> bookshop for hermetic and alchemical stuff?

Adam has a list of Publishers and Bookdealers on his site at :

http://www.levity.com/alchemy/publishr.html

If you're going to be in London I'd suggest :

Watkins Books, Cecil Court, Off Charing Cross Road
Compendium, Camden High Street (Near Camden Lock)

regards
Marcus

Wed Feb 07 09:26:56 1996
Subject: 0190 Edward Smith and Imhotep

Date: Wed, 7 Feb 96 07:02:48 UT
From: Alex Blanco

Have any of the alchemist in the forum heard about a book written by James H.
Breasted about some egyptian documents found by Edward Smith? These documents
are about the god Imhotep and momification.
Alex

Wed Feb 07 09:28:14 1996
Subject: 0191 Universal Language - Chaos: cross hatched pattern & vessel

Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 19:04:43 -0500
From: Flamel

What follows is some material on the cross as the "universal life hidden in
matter" and its associative links to the alchemical vessel. This is a
somewhat serpentine presentation of images. Many other connections could
also be made, and I welcome anyone's additions, corrections, etc. You may
find some of the description of the image of the Vessel and its contents as
introductory. I apologize if I have stated what is already known and obvious
to members of the Forum. I am attempting to reconstruct the image that lies
behind the ideas in Fulcanelli's associations.

Maury
Feb 6, 1996

*

On Jan 19, 1996, Patrick Smith wrote in commenting on a passage from the
pseudonymous author Fulcanelli:

>>...Fulcanelli associates the cross (ankh) with "universal life hidden in
matter", again indicating the Vessel containing the Spirit. It's my
understanding that the cross hatched pattern implies a Hermetically Sealed
Vessel, symbolically equivalent to Fixation of the Mercury...<<

Fulcanelli's ideas as to the meaning and goal of the alchemists' work
originates from the structure of a medical philosophy, that is, where the
healing quality of a substance which the alchemists were searching for is
emphasized. It is one that reaches far back into history. I should like to
illustrate this by drawing your attention to Fulcanelli's idea, which Patrick
Smith illuminates, of the cross hatched pattern representing a Hermetically
Sealed Vessel. We must ask ourselves where the alchemists got this idea?
But first, here is an example from part of a poem in the *Rosarium
Philosophorum* (1593):

"A fountain rises from my earth,
And brings two rivers there to birth,
One flows towards the rising sun,
The other where it sets doth run.
Two eagles rise, their feathers burn,
So naked down to earth return,
And yet again are feathered there,
The sun and moon its subjects were."

If one were to draw a diagram of this alchemical process of transformation it
would be the image of a cross surrounded by a circle. Below would be the
dark night and above the light of day. We have the vertical movement of the
birds and the horizontal movement of the streams and the suggestion of
rotation. Specifically, "A fountain rises from my earth," that is from the
body, from what is tangible and firm - in the Rosarium text, the fountain
rises from the body of the hermaphrodite and divides into two streams. Two
eagles rise from these streams, they fly up into the heights and fall down
again. The streams flow East and West; the sun rises in the East; the second
stage in the transformative process is often represented as the dawn, the
_sol oriens_, the stage of the _albedo_, which follows the dark night of
chaos. In other words, the _vas hermeticum_ suggested an image of a sphere,
a round vessel that was founded on the idea of the creation, and therefore
the container had to resemble the universe, in order that the creation might
take place in it.

For those unfamiliar with this image of the vessel and its contents from the
*Rosarium,* I will describe first the chemical image behind it. In the
retort there is a solution in which all the substances are dissolved. They
correspond to the earth and remain at the bottom. A fire is needed below the
retort in order to develop the steam. The hot water rises and descends as
two streams. The non-substantial or half substantial vapors rise above the
level of the solution, and are called _spiritus_, or in Greek, _pneumata_.
The original meaning is breath. Pneuma is moving air. These streams and
vapors as they rise are often called birds - eagles in this case. They fly
up, lose their feathers in the cooler regions of the air, are unable to fly
without feathers, and so descend again into the solution. If you watch such
a vessel over the fire, you will see that the steam moves outwards towards
the walls of the retort, which causes the circular movement I mentioned
above. The steam is forced down by the top of the retort. This image of the
retort, where matter is cooked and turned into steam, is fundamental to
alchemy.

Imagine how an alchemist watched the cooking of his solutions innumerable
times and was completely fascinated by it. Again and again he returned to
it, both in his experiments and in his writings. It was all the unknown to
him, and each time he hoped that the miracle would happen. The idea is to
purify and refine the steam to such an extent that the pneuma or spiritus
would reach the highest degree of subtlety. Imagine watching this
distillation process thousands of times, or so it was said, so that the
spirit should reach the state of purest substance. It was hoped, in the
uppermost retort or head, that the quinta essentia would appear, the finest
of all spirits, in the form of a sky blue fluid. This was the substance
which the alchemist was seeking, and is in a way an extract of heaven. This
_coelum philosophorum_, this most subtle of all spirits, is produced in the
head retort, where it could also be caught. This fluid was no ordinary water
but the most refined and spiritual of substances, sometimes called the _aqua
permanens_. It corresponds to the _hydor theion_ of the Greeks.

This water was really a baptismal water - and this association opens up one
avenue of the complex and manifold symbolic connections between the Christian
and alchemical mythologies. The alchemist used this Christian phraseology
when they spoke of the application of their miraculous water as if it were a
sort of baptism, by which a person was changed psychically. A _hylikos_
became a _psychikos_ or even a _pneumatikos_. For this water contains the
Holy Spirit, so the individual to whom it is applied is impregnated by the
water, so to speak, in that first one is purified, and then the Holy Spirit
is imparted to one, through the purified substance, and one is reborn in a
new form. The Catholic Church still uses this rite today in the form of the
_Benedictio fontis_ (the blessing of the baptismal water), and a text is read
in which the Holy Ghost is invoked. In the Latin text, the _divini fontis
uterus_, the baptismal font, is conceived as the immaculate womb of the
Church. Often the alchemists refer to their retort as a uterus; indeed, the
Christian conception of the baptismal water almost exactly corresponds to the
alchemical. This conception of the divine water existed in Greek philosophy
before the days of John the Baptist, f.i., the Ssabians, a Mandaean sect, had
the peculiarity of only eating the flesh of drowned animals on account of
their teaching that everything needs to be purified and renewed by water.

To return to the cross hatched pattern and the hermetic vessel - we find this
idea connected with certain other religious ideas, f.i., with Dionysus, and
Julius Firmicus Meternus, a Christian apologist of the fourth century, who
quotes a mystic call belonging to the Bacchic mysteries: _euoi dikeros
dimorphe_. This "two-horned, two-figured" being, that is evoked, is a
hermaphrodite. These horns are derived from the horns of the moon and were
apparently a thorn in the flesh to Firmicus Maternus. His book was dedicated
to the three most Holy Emperors, the three sons of Constantine the Great, and
in it he tried to incite them to eradicate the heathen temples. He writes:

"The horns mean nothing other than the venerable signs of the Cross. The one
supports the world and holds the earth together, and through the connection
of the two, which go sidewards, the East is touched and the West held; so
that the whole circle should be stabilized threefold."

Again, imagine a circle with cross hatched lines drawn within it, dividing it
into four parts. Maternus counts the vertical beam as one, and the
horizontal as two. One would expect the circle to be stabilized fourfold,
but it had to be threefold. Firmicus Maternus goes on:

"...and that the foundations of the united work should be made firm with
immortal roots."

"Roots" here is a translation of the "rhizomata" of Empedocles, a way of
expressing the four elements. Some of you may be aware of another poem in
the *Rosarium* in which the "Empress" speaks of herself as four in one ["The
four came forth, one yet again to be, in our complete and more than perfect
stone"]. These are the four roots of the stone, and the "immortal roots" are
undoubtably four. Firmicus Maternus continues:

"... These are the venerable horns (or ends) of the Cross, here is the
immortal trace of sacred virtue, here the divine structure of the glorious
work, Thou, Christ, with outstretched hands, thou supportest the universe and
the earth, the heavenly kingdom, on thy immortal shoulders rests our
salvation. Thou, Lord, bearest the signs of eternal life, with divine
inspiration thou hast foretold it through the prophets: Isaiah says: 'Behold,
a son is born unto us, the government is upon his shoulders, and his name is
called: Messenger of the great thought' [see Isaiah 9:6 for comparison].
These are the horns of the cross through which the universe is uniformly
supported and held together..."

Firmicus Maternus regards the horns as the arms of the cross, which the devil
placed on the head of Dionysus. He means that the two horns of Dionysus are
a sort of devilish anticipation of the idea of the cross. He also insists
that the cross is threefold. The Christian form of the cross does lend
itself to a certain extent to the idea of three; and it must be three, on
account of the Trinity being the support of the universe, but objectively a
cross has four ends and not three. Dorn, a medieval alchemist and physician,
took up this question. He attributes not just two but four horns to the
devil. It was regarded as the invention of the devil that the world should
rest on a quaternity, for it must essentially rest on the Trinity. Here is
one of the great mysteries of medieval psychology.

Until about the 16th century, alchemy was founded on four roots, it was only
then that the number three began to play a role and to compete with the four.
The basic quaternity goes far back into the history of alchemy, back to Mary
the Jewess, or Maria Prophetissa. Her axiom was: One becomes two, two three,
three four, and four one; and then it begins all over again from the
beginning. The alchemical process is completed in four stages - the Greek
alchemists had already discovered this. The number four represents the four
elements and the process usually works up to the element of fire. When the
process reaches the nature of fire, the hottest, driest and most spiritual
element, the goal is, so to speak, attained, in that fire comprises
everything. This idea of the eternal living fire goes back to Heraclitus,
and corresponds also to the extra-canonical saying of Christ: "Who is near me
is near to the fire. He that is far from me is far from the Kingdom." So
the most inmost nature of Christ is fire, that everlasting fire which is also
the goal of alchemy. The god Dionysus himself fits well into this
connection, for his nature was also fire. Indeed, in the New Testament, we
find a parallel when the cloven tongues of fire came down from heaven and sat
upon each of the apostles, it filled them with the Holy Spirit, the fiery
breath of the Pneuma.

To my way of thinking, to understand where the unusual symbols originate
which the alchemists use to express their ideas - ideas that continue to be
fascinating to our psychical life - f.i., those ideas expressed by the
contemporary author Fulcanelli, and remarked upon by Patrick Smith in his
post, ideas that I touched on in this post, such as the "'universal life
hidden in matter'...indicating the Vessel containing the Spirit" - to
understand and fully appreciate the meaning of these ideas in our time, one
has to reach back into our own intellectual history to first decipher the
strange symbolic language of the alchemist, and then to examine how such
numinous ideas have been assimilated by the human soul.

Wed Feb 07 09:30:02 1996
Subject: 0192 Menstruum to dissolve Sol

Date: 06 Feb 96 19:02:42 EST
From: Beat Krummenacher

Dear Russ
The following remarks refer to your message from 1. February 1996 to the theme
.

The old ones have often used the distillates from the dry distillation of
metallic acetates. Indeed it is little astonishing, that the dissolving effect
of the rectified fraction is weak. The ardent water or the spirit of
philosophical wine alone can not dissolve metals, but at most attack them.

The master key lies in the acuation of the spirit. However more exactly read
once the Weidenfeld book. There you will find many useful instructions. The
philosophical menstrua only emerge by acuation of the spirit of philosophical
wine. Then the further openly stands there...

Your remark to the application of urine is important. From urine salts can be
isolated, what suits to the mentioned acuation. Urine is a primary source for
volatile salts. Today one also can more simply accomplish these works. However
the alchemists knew hardly an other source for these chemical materials
formerly, so that they highly estimated the exit of the man .

Lapis

Wed Feb 07 09:31:01 1996
Subject: 0193 John Dee

Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 15:50:14 -0800
From: Josh

No doubt your colleague knows of this work, but just in case:

TITLE: The Enochian Evocation of Dr. John Dee
EDITOR/TRANSLATOR: Geoffrey James
PUBLISHER: Heptangle Books, Gillette, NJ 1988

Mostly Dee's own work, from manuscripts listed in the bibliography (I
believe it to be genuine, though I'm no scholar!), with fascinating preface,
appendices, notes, sigils, etc.

The editor gives much attention to the angelic language ("Enochian") spoken
by spirits through the mediumship of Kelly. Kelly is often painted a canny
charlatan, but James argues: "Could Kelly, whose single linguistic
accomplishment was mastery of schoolboy Latin and even whose English was
laced with colloquialisms, have devised an entire language, with its own
unique grammar and syntax? It took Tolkien, a professor of philology, years
to fabricate the Elvish tongue that features so largely in his work; if
Kelly had farbicated the keys [i.e., the Enochian language], he would have
had to do so in a matter of days." Thankfully, he leaves this an open question!

Hope this helps. And hope that Dee & Kelly's famous alchemical exploits are
sufficient excuse for this slight sidetrack... Personally, I find it
fascinating!

>Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 09:24:54 -0600
>From: George Randall Leake III
>
>
>I know this might be slightly off the topic of alchemy for some of you, but
>a new scholar to the field here in Texas is researching an area I barely
>can advise him on. Just wondering if anyone can steer us in the right
>direction.
>
>He's researching the Enochian language used by John Dee and how it was used
>in his astral communications. I've heard bad things about a number of books
>with "John Dee" in the title, and that many have adopted his ideas to some
>other system.

Wed Feb 07 09:32:39 1996
Subject: 0194 David Hudson and Monoatomic PGMs.

From: Barry Carter
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 21:01:38 +0000

I am interested in communicating with people on this forum who are
intrigued with David Hudson's work with monoatomic PGMs and gold. I
am particularly eager to communicate with anyone who has been to one
or more of his lectures. I am looking for audio or video tapes of
lectures other than the lectures in Portland, Dallas or Denver.

I would be willing to share a copy of the Portland workshop video
tape with anyone who would make a committment to transcribe any two
hour portion of this 6 hour and 45 minute video tape.

Each of the tapes that I have contains some information that is not
on the other tapes. If anyone is interested in transcripts from
Hudson tapes they should drop me a private note.

Barry Carter
Blue Mountain Native Forest Alliance
Voice 541-523-3357
Fax 541-523-9438

End corporate totalitarianism.

When cryptography is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl."

Wed Feb 07 09:47:47 1996
Subject: 0195 Cleopatra the alchemist

Date: 07 Feb 96 04:23:09 EST
From: Marcus Williamson

George,

Adam has on the Web site in the Bibliography section (Modern Books on Alchemy)
the following reference :

"Augurellus, Johannes Aurelius. Les trois livres de la chrysopee. Paris, 1977."

Hope this helps

regards
Marcus
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/marcus_williamson

Wed Feb 07 15:36:46 1996
Subject: 0196 alchemy and christianity

Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 9:28:53 -0600 (CST)
From: WTHEISEN

SOME HAVE EXPRESSED INTEREST IN THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN ALCHEMY AND
CHRISTIANITY. I HAVE PUBLISHED A SHORT ARTICLE IN THE PERIODICAL
THE AMERICAN BENEDICTINE REVIEW, WITH THE TITLE, "THE ATTRACTION
OF ALCHEMY FOR MONKS AND FRIARS IN THE 13TH-14TH CENTURIES." IN THE ARTICLE
I TRIED TO INDICATE THE GREAT INTEREST IN ALCHEMY AMONG RELIGIOUS,
ESPECIALLY AMONG THE DOMINICANS AND THE FRANCISCANS, AND GAVE
SOME REASONS FOR THIS INTEREST AND FOR THE NEGATIVE REACTION ON
THE PART OF THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH. THE ARTICLE IS FOUND IN
THE SEPTEMBER, 1995 VOLUME OF THE PERIODICAL.

WILFRED THEISEN, ST. JOHN'S ABBEY, COLLEGEVILLE, MINNESOTA

Wed Feb 07 15:37:47 1996
Subject: 0197 Edward Smith and Imhotep

ate: 07 Feb 96 09:09:47 EST
From: Marcus Williamson

Alex,

An Egyptian bibliography at :

http://www.vuw.ac.nz/who/Jamie.Norrish/nephilim/Bibliographies/egypt.htm

shows :

Breasted, James Henry, Ancient records of Egypt : historical documents from the
earliest times to the Persian conquest, Chicago, University of Chicago Press,
1927

Breasted, James Henry, Development of religion and thought in ancient Egypt,
Philadelphia, University of Pennsylvania Press, 1972

Is one of these the book to which you refer?

Another bibliography can be found at :

http://pubweb.acns.nwu.edu/~pib/catasbib/history.htm

For further references search www.lycos.com using EGYPT AND BREASTED

What is the relation between this book and Alchemy?

regards
Marcus

Wed Feb 07 15:38:33 1996
Subject: 0198 Edward Smith and Imhotep

Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 09:12:20 -0600
From: George Randall Leake III

>Date: Wed, 7 Feb 96 07:02:48 UT
>From: Alex Blanco
>Have any of the alchemist in the forum heard about a book written by James H.
>Breasted about some egyptian documents found by Edward Smith? These documents
>are about the god Imhotep and momification.
>Alex
***Alex, I found this on the UT Austin Online catalogue...perhaps you can
request it (and volume 2) through an Inter-Library Loan Service?

Breasted, James Henry, 1865-1935 / The Edwin Smith surgical papyrus. /
Chicago, Ill. 1930
-Q- PJ 1681 S6 1930 V.1 Life Science Library

UNIFORM TITLE: Edwin Smith Surgical Papyrus.
TITLE: The Edwin Smith surgical papyrus, published in facsimile and
hieroglyphic transliteration with translation and commentary
in two volumes, by James Henry Breasted ...
PUBLISHED: Chicago, Ill., The University of Chicago Press, 1930.
DESCRIPTION: 2 v. 54 pl. (part fold., incl. facsims.) 31 x 24 cm. (v. 2: 41
x 30 cm.)
SERIES: University of Chicago Oriental Institute publications. vol.
III-IV
NOTES: "Printed in Great Britain."
The papyrus is named after Edwin Smith, who purchased the
document in January 1862 during his stay at Thebes. After
his death in 1906 it was presented to the New York
Historical Society. cf. General introduction.
Errata slip inserted between p. 596 and plate I of v. 1.
"List of abbreviated book titles": v. 1, p. (592)
NOTES: Contents: v. 1. Hieroglyphic transliterations, translation and
commentary.--v. 2. Facsimile plates and line for line
hieroglyphic transliteration.
SUBJECTS: Surgery--Early works to 1800.
Egyptian language--Papyri--Facsimiles.
Egyptian language--Writing, Hieroglyphic
OTHER AUTHORS: Breasted, James Henry, 1865-1935
New-York Historical Society. Library.
OCLC NUMBER: 390887

-G.Leake, 512-471-9117 taliesin@mail.utexas.edu

"To be ignorant of what occurred before you were born is to remain always a
child."
-Cicero
"Oh age! oh letters! It is a joy to be alive!...Woe to you, barbarians!"
-Ulrich von Hutten, 1518, Poet Laureate of the German Empire

Wed Feb 07 21:14:04 1996
Subject: 0199 By Faith alone

Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 07:09:37 +1100
From: Petra Gottlieb

A.J. Le Sage wrote: But what of Faith? in answer to my "Belief is error if
it just stays believe and not becomes conviction.

The "dogma" laid down by the church about Martin Luther's "By faith alone"
has given rise to much misunderstanding, and in all these centuries it could
never be satisfactorily explained. Lutherans are now reproached with being
no longer capable even of making Luther's basic idea of justification
through faith understandable to men.
Luther in his struggle with the churches found support in the teaching of
Paul, that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law (Rom.
3,28), for applied to his position they meant: "Justification before God
comes from faith, NOT FROM THE WORKS OF THE CHURCH."
Paul himself supplements his teaching of justification when he writes in his
Epistle to the Galations: "For in Christ availeth only faith, WHICH WORKS BY
LOVE (Gal. 5.6). Hence faith must be transformed into deed, and this deed
must be filled with love.
Even James in his Epistle in the NT wrote as if to amend and clarify Paul's
view: "By works was faith made perfect" (2, 22); "Ye see then how that by
works a man is justified, and not by faith alone" (2, 24); "For as the body
without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also" (2, 26).

Belief remains a "blind faith" if it has not become conviction.
---
PETRA CHRISTIANE GOTTLIEB
petrag@iaccess.com.au

>>OHNE LIEBE KEINE KUNST!<< (Paracelsus)
WITHOUT LOVE THERE IS NO ART!

Wed Feb 07 22:34:01 1996
Subject: 0200 Answers, Questions?

Date: Wed, 7 Feb 96 21:04:04 PST
From: A.J.Le Sage

I travel from East to West to find
what has been lost

---------------Original Message---------------
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 09:43:24 -0500
From: Clinton R. Armitage

Thank you Todd R. Rossman:
>
>He who knows does not speak.
>He who speaks does not know.
>Block all the passages!
>Shut all the doors!
>Blunt all edges!
>Untie all tangles!
>Harmonize all lights!
>Unite the worlds into one whole!
>This is called the Mystical Whole,
>Which you cannot court after nor shun,
>Benefit nor harm, honour nor humble.
>Therefore, it is the Highest of the world.
>
>........... I would argue that Lao Tzu did an admirable job of saying so
much with so little!

********************************************************************************

EAST and WEST:

Why the three wise men from the EAST to announce the birth of the
coming Christ to the WEST?

Why so many occultists and/or alchemists from the WEST
traveling to the EAST in the days when books and
translations were few?

Are the East AND the West essential ingredients for the
alchemists crucible in the search for the Golden Fleece-
from a Westerners perspective ?

The DUALITY in all things?

"Unite the Worlds into one whole!"????

Thank you Lau Tzu, your words are a source of
everlasting joy to me.