Alchemy Forum 0051-0100

From January 25th 1996, the Alchemy forum was restructured and the messages were sequentially numbered. This is an unedited extract of messages 51-100.
Go to next 50 messages . Back to forum archive.

Mon Jan 29 15:30:28 1996
Subject: 0051 Medicinal Alchemy

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 96 08:04:22 MST
From: alkemi@Rt66.com (Paul Bartscher)

Sorry we brought up a subject and then abandoned it for a few days- we were
busy moving our laboratory to a new location.
We've been working with different types of naturopathic practitioners,
trying to reconstruct Paracelsus' original healing system. We've found that
Paracelsus worked with different levels of medicinal preparations to effect
different cures. The different cures were directed at different diseases,
originating in one or more of five "ens" or causes of disease.
To effectively cure a disease, an understanding of the origin is necessary.
Vibrationally, there are two areas affected by spagyrics- the physical body
and the soul body. Spagyric preparations can have many levels of effect
within each of these bodies.
We feel that combinations of herbs should only be prepared together in
making medicines directed at the physical body only. This is because within
the physical level of the medicine, the ability to manipulate the
astrological qualities is much easier, and so a medicine with various
different energies can be manipulated towards a cure without a confusion of
energetics. Due to the level of spiritual manipulation needed to create a
higher, or soul, medicine, and the complexity of the energetic processes
needed, more than one plant energetic quality leads to confusion and
undirected energy. It may work in homeopathy to combine different plants,
but alchemy is really another system entirely.
The system for prescribing spagyric medicines uses the seven planetary
archetypes for evaluating the vibrational quality of the disease, and its
cure, from a vibrational level. The other possible way of using a spagyric
is by finding the constitution of the patient, using the hour and day of
birth, to support the constitution at a soul level. In this way, the seven
planetary qualities are created within the body, and brought into balance,
according to the Hermetic axiom "as above, so below..."

Strength & Wisdom,
Paul & Micah

NOTE: After this was returned to us three times over the last week, we found
out the new address, and posted it there, and so we must apologise for an
even further delay in our comments.

Mon Jan 29 15:33:48 1996
Subject: 0052 Questions for YOU ...

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 09:15:04 -0600
From: taliesin@mail.utexas.edu (George Randall Leake III)

>Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 10:06:00 -0700 (MST)
>From: Tom Hennessy
>
>The whole thing with alchemy and the Bible is that they don't seem to
>come together except by spirituality.
>I cannot find any mention of 'alchemy'.. in the Bible.
>He was a bit interested in 'transmutation'.. though. :)
***
*Might some of his miracles like multiplying bread be considered in the
realm of alchemy?

*But as you suggest, the metaphor of transmutation is not too far off from
Christian redemption (except one must accept Jesus specifically, and/or go
to his church, get baptized, depending on yr sect).

*One wonders whether the spiritual context of alchemy and Christianity
might have had some common root or shared heritage in the ancient world?

-G.Leake, 512-471-9117 taliesin@mail.utexas.edu

"To be ignorant of what occurred before you were born is to remain always a
child."
-Cicero
"Oh age! oh letters! It is a joy to be alive!...Woe to you, barbarians!"
-Ulrich von Hutten, 1518, Poet Laureate of the German Empire

Mon Jan 29 15:42:40 1996
Subject: 0053 Druid Alchemy

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 09:10:17 -0600
From: taliesin@mail.utexas.edu (George Randall Leake III)

>susan@terrain.demon.co.uk wrote--->
>Dear Alchemists, does anyone know about the Alchemy of the Druids, known as
>Pheryllt or Feryllt? The word is from 'ffer' - Cymric for 'that which is
>solid' i.e. metal (>our words ferrous and so on).It is sometimes called
>'Calvyddyon Pheryllt', which implies chemistry as well as metallurgy. The
>subject is mentioned very briefly in several books I have, among them Ross
>Nichols' The Book of Druidry, Matthews' Encyclopedia of Celtic Wisdom,
>Philip Carr-Gomm's Elements of Druidry (Which says that legend tells of a
>city of Druid alchemists in Snowdonia, known as Emrys or Dinas Affaraon,
>'the city of higher powers'). According to Nichols, groves of Druid
>alchemists are known to have existed around Oxford from about AD 800.

***
**I posted your inquiry to a faculty member of UTs Classics Dept, who
teaches Medieaval Welsh in addition to Greek and other courses in the
curriculum. He answers:

The most interesting thing about the word 'fferyll(t)' is its derivation,
rather different from what your source suggests. It comes from'Vergilius'
-- you remember that Vergil was the traditional sorcerer andwizard of the
Middle Ages. But the word itself is not cited in Welshuntil 1632, and
what later citations the dictionary gives are more pharmacythan wizardry.
Medieval Welsh literature has plenty of sorcerers and
wizards, but I've no memory of alchemy. Tell me more if you find out
about alchemy at Oxford.

-G.Leake, 512-471-9117 taliesin@mail.utexas.edu

"To be ignorant of what occurred before you were born is to remain always a
child."
-Cicero
"Oh age! oh letters! It is a joy to be alive!...Woe to you, barbarians!"
-Ulrich von Hutten, 1518, Poet Laureate of the German Empire

Mon Jan 29 17:42:26 1996
Subject: 0054 Aurum potabile

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 09:31:38 -0600
From: taliesin@mail.utexas.edu (George Randall Leake III)

>Date: Sun, 28 Jan 96 17:48 PST
>From: clpress@yelmtel.com (John Hill)
>
>
>Does anyone know a reference that describes the method of making 'Aurum
>Potible'? Or does anyone have a recipe?

***if I'm not mistaken I think there was a thread here on that some months
back including warnings to folks about the dangers of ingesting gold--did
anyone save that thread for this fellow?

-G.Leake, 512-471-9117 taliesin@mail.utexas.edu

"To be ignorant of what occurred before you were born is to remain always a
child."
-Cicero
"Oh age! oh letters! It is a joy to be alive!...Woe to you, barbarians!"
-Ulrich von Hutten, 1518, Poet Laureate of the German Empire

Mon Jan 29 19:05:14 1996
Subject: 0055 answers?, questions ...

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 09:56:13 -0800
From: joshua geller

Alchemy forum writes:
> Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 09:17:47 -0500
> From: kcrist@gate.net

> one can read paracelsus for instance and "believe" they understand
> alchemy. but it is and will allways remain a belief. there isnt
> much value in beliving in anything. the moment a belief becomes
> part of a persons mental agenda doubt comes in. as taoism states:
> those who speak do not know.

belief is error.

josh

Mon Jan 29 19:49:07 1996
Subject: 0056 Questions for YOU ...

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 10:02:47 -0800
From: joshua geller

Mr. Charles Richards writes:
> A.J.Le Sage writes:

> > I have alwasys been under the opinon that people only
> > blow themselves up by misunderstanding the message.

> Yes, there are those that can open the books and understand what the
> writer was trying to say.

> And yes, it is very, VERY, important to know what they are saying. We
> are dealing with very toxic substances and explosive mixtures
> sometimes.

in these matters, sir, specificity is almost always of greater utility
than generality. would you care to enumerate the specific dangers
associated with sulfur compounds of antimony, with heavy metals
generally, the dangers associated with various heavy metals when mixed
with nitrate salts, of acids etc? or shall we expect only further vague,
general and portentous remarks?

> The further you go the more dangerous it is. There are
> many accounts of Alchemists blowing themselves up.

as I say, specific dangers of laboratory procedures (as have been
posted here before) might very well be of interest and use to the
reader of this list. you will of course forgive me for saying, sir,
that you have posted nothing of the kind here.

> And YES there are those that have finished the Great Work.

so you keep saying. can you demonstrate this?

best regards,

josh

Mon Jan 29 22:08:31 1996
Subject: 0057 A question

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 96 19:58:03 PST
From: A.J.Le Sage

To Mr Charlie Richards
When some makes a statement like this they must be prepared
to undergo close scrutiny as to what they say. You have clearly
stated on several occasions that you have completed the work
by which one acquires the Philosophical stone. There now appears
in your writings some confusion as to the legitimately of these
statements. While I mean no ill will I think the criticism here
leveled is justified. Most would be Alchemists with a certain
amount of knowledge of the Art would agree that "The work
is not complete until the Fire goes out". You say that you have
one last step and you hesitate as to whether to proceed. One inch
is as good as a mile and one step is considerately further, like others
I would suggest you suck it and see. You will agree that one cannot
go back, cannot un-know, so this leaves one option and that is
to go on.
I would be grateful if you would clarify your statement as you
show considerable insight into the underlying philosophy of
Alchemy and I would be disappointed to see you discredit
yourself in such a way.

************************************************************************

No I am not implying that I poessess such understanding. I am stating
quite clearly that I have such understanding.

If you ever stood over a fire and watched, as I have, or held a beaker
and watched it for long enough...you would understand that all the
Alchemists were doing is actually discribing what they were seeing in
their expiriments.

That is why I have such a strong view of Alchemy. The esoteric aspects
will put you in the right frame of mind to go where no man has gone
before...and not blow yourself up. But beyond that you have to apply
it in the physical world.

I have been transmuting the elements and all life around me for a very,
very long time. It is not all that difficult once you understand the
laws that govern such things.

I am one step from the stone. One. I have all the necessary
ingriedients and materials, but am unsure as to why I should proceed.

I am not so sure I want to finish what I started so long ago. You see
to get where I am you find that it may not be such a great idea to have
something that powerful in your life.

Although transmuting the elements is great fun, and is a sure way to
riches, you will find if you get there...riches are not that great to
have if you have emplimented the esoteric teaching into your life.

The greatest wealth to come from a life dedicated to Alchemy is
understanding. And with that understanding you come to know that
wealth for its own sake is an empty box.

I gave it up once I had it. Not once, but three times have I gained
what some say is the top...and just walked away from it. It is a
shallow victory to gain success only to find that it is not what you
really want. It is the striving to get there that is the key. For
without striving, life really sucks. It is a flat line, no real ups,
no real downs.

As for living for a long time...who needs it. Being healthy your whole
life is not that great either. I know this may sound kind of wierd to
someone who has not been there, but life as it is, is ok.

What you will find if you make it, is...well it is the trip that is
important to you...not the destination.

Don't be in a hurry to get there...because once you do, you will find
that you will have rather taken your time and savored.

Kind of being really hungry....food never tastes so good. But once you
have enough to eat...it is just eating another meal.

So strive, try everyting, enjoy the trip, it will be over soon enough
anyway.

And will I tell you how, NO. Will I tell you how to get most of the
way...YES.
Charlie

Mon Jan 29 22:10:45 1996
Subject: 0058 most of the way ...

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 13:49:18 -0800
From: subrider@ix.netcom.com (Charlie Richards )
Subject: Re: 0040 most of the way ...

Anastasy,
Anything you do that allows you to gain the knowledge and necessary
skills is good. The most important thing you can do to further your
goal of the Great Work, is to simply break the inerta and do something.

The skills and self confidence and self awareness you gain from working
with plants will aid you when you start with the more difficult tasks.

I started with plants and then went to animals, and ores. Yes animals,
I learned to assay animals, and to extract the minerals out of them.
That led me to working with the raw minerals from rocks.

The main thing is...Just do it!

Charlie

Mon Jan 29 22:11:44 1996
Subject: 0059 more questions ...

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 13:57:42 -0800
From: subrider@ix.netcom.com (Charlie Richards )

Start with plants, then animals, then the mineral kingdom. Everything
you see, start taking it apart and then put it back togather again.

As above, so below...as the ending so the beginning. If you can take
it apart and then put it back togather again...you are well on your way
to understanding.

If you want to unmake a rock...first learn to make one. That was my
first lesson given to me by my Master...and my last. After I figured
out how to make a rock, I had the skill and understanding to guide
myself.

The most important thing you can do is just begin.

But if you want the fast track...learn to make a rock!

Charlie

Mon Jan 29 22:53:45 1996
Subject: 0060 answers?, questions ...

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 13:58:37 -0800
From: subrider@ix.netcom.com (Charlie Richards )

That depends on the skill of the translator!
Charlie

Tue Jan 30 09:32:31 1996
Subject: 0061 I am new here - Beat Krummenacher

Date: 29 Jan 96 18:59:03 EST
From: Beat Krummenacher <100667.1267@compuserve.com>

Since some time I pursue the events in your forum. With this message I
would like to shortly introduce myself as a new member. Surely it is desired,
if one can get an idea of who the novice is.

I am pharmacist and I deal with alchemy in theory and practice now already
since soon 20 years. Initially I predominantly worked with plants, because
this area offers a good lead-in in alchemy. Soon I however began with the
processing of minerals and metals. At the moment my main interest lies in the
preparation of the different solvents and/or menstrua of the alchemists.
None will get round this central theme, who seriously deals with
alchemy.

During my study of newer literature about alchemy as well as through the contact
with modern alchemists, it has struck me again and again, how little the present
alchemists understand theory and practice of the old one. Sure it is
not simple to penetrate into the complex area. To it it needs patience,
perseverance, industrious study of the writings and many experiments in the
lab. It is however astonishing, how confused the sights of present
alchemists often are. One speculates and philosophizes without being
on a sound footing. This may be for the individual of course
interesting, only it will not help him. Thus especially today it is
important to bring order in the edifice of alchemy. A systematic entrance to
alchemy is necessary, should it be understandable in the modern age.

Alchemy can scientifically be pursued. With it however I do not say, that
alchemy and science are one. For alchemy predominantly deals with the
application of certain energies, which are not considered in the present
sciences. However these energies nevertheless can experimentally and
reproducibly be utilized, if one correctly alchemically works. In this sense
alchemy is science. And as each science more simply is understandable
for beginners, if one can set up on fundamental axioms, so one of my
important requests is the construction of a general axiomatics of alchemy.
I take the view, that the mechanisms, which underlie alchemy, can be clearly
described.

Strictly speaking the terminology of the alchemists of earlier centuries
likewise was an experiment to axiomatically record the natural events. The
descriptions of the alchemists fundamentally are right, if also they may
strangely
appear today. The problem is the translation of the old concepts and
symbols in concrete materials and processes according to the present
nomenclature. The experience shows, that this problem is soluble.

I have written a publication, which first treats the general theoretical bases
of alchemy. Resting on it the general practice is derived. This leads to
processes, according to which spagyric essence of supreme quality can be
manufactured. As example I have set the production of spagyric essences from
plants in the center of the writing. The spagyric manufacturing processes are
discussed, which up to now are known above all in Europe and are utilized
there. Since however until today no process exists, which uncompromisingly
and completely fulfills both the traditional as well as modern criteria of the
preparation of a pharmaceutical product, I have developed new processes, which
suffice these conditions. Thus I call spagyric essences manufactured according
to my processes complete spagyric. It is interesting from modern view, that
complete spagyric essences are producible in the industrial scale. They
furthermore are standardized and can analytically be recorded according
to modern criteria of pharmacy. I have internationally patented my processes.
If any members of the forum would have interest in manufacturing spagyric
essences for instance in the USA or to distribute existing essences, so they
should get in touch with me. Still much work lies before us. However I am
sure, that spagyric essences have a great future ahead.

Who is interested, can procure the above mentioned publication both in German
or English. In English it is obtainable under the title "Spagyric Tinctures -
Tradition, Preparation and Usage by Beat Krummenacher, Archives Press, Box
11218, Boulder, Colorado 80301, 1993." Particulars for the German first
edition can be ordered from me via E-Mail.

I will sign future contributions to the forum with the code name Lapis.

My address:
Beat Krummenacher, Taegertschistrasse 34a, CH-3110 Muensingen, Switzerland,
Phone / Fax 0041 31 721 78 17, E-Mail 100667.1267@compuserve.com

Tue Jan 30 09:34:04 1996
Subject: 0062 Why The Stone?

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 18:19:21 -0500
From: RawnClark@aol.com

In a recent post, Mr. Richards brings up a pertinent question: Why make The
Stone?

Is the motivation greed? The desire for physical gold? Is it the greed of
ego, of needing to have a certain power "over" others? As Mr. Richards
attests, and as many have discovered over the millennia, this is an empty
goal.

Is it a fear of Death? A need to defy the Natural Law of Change? Is it lust
for a single, endless, physical existence? This too proves to be an empty
goal when pursued alone. It invariably leads to the question of "Why?", and
without an answer to this unavoidable question, there is little point.

To me, the question of "Why?" is of equal importance to the question of
"How?", and I think both need to be pursued simultaneously and with equal
vigor. The danger of ignoring the "Why?" is that it is a question that MUST
be answered, a question that will stop one hard in their tracks till
answered.
Addressing it throughout one's Work, allows one's motivation to mature
naturally along with the accumulation of knowledge and power. The answer
to the question of "Why?" one does what one does with one's power and
knowledge, is a crucial ingredient in the Stone (IMO), and one not best
saved for last.

In the language of the Western Hermetic-Qabbalistic Tradition, there are
several ways to make it to Binah (Understanding). One way is from
Geburah, and is thought by some to be a short-cut. By this Path, the Adept
Major, forces their way across the Abyss by sheer power of will, travelling
from the Fire of Severity (Mars) to The Water of Severity (Binah). However,
this places one in the "Dark Sterile Mother" aspect of Binah, having traveled
from Severity to Severity, without touching upon Mercy. The result is a
sterile, motivationless power, limited by its own Saturnian force. The
overcomming of this Saturn force is difficult indeed...far more difficult and
"time consuming" than following the "Lightning Flash". It inevitably
requires a journey to Gedulah and subsequent crossing of the Abyss from that
direction, inorder to be corrected.

The Path from Geburah to Gedulah, and then to Binah, takes the Adept
Major from the Fire of Severity, to the Water of Mercy, before crossing the
Abyss. It is in Gedulah that the Adept solidifies her/his motivation. The
journey of the Exempt Adept across the Abyss, captures the so called
"Crossover of Influences", wherein the Water of Mercy is transformed into
the Water of Severity. This leads one to the "Bright Fertile Mother" aspect
of Binah, where the deepest levels of motivation are revealed.

In my opinion, one's motivation should be the focus of regular meditation
and prayer throughout one's pursual of Alchemy.

:) Rawn Clark
29 Jan 96

Tue Jan 30 09:35:09 1996
Subject: 0063 answers?, questions ...

Date: Tue, 30 Jan 96 13:00 NZDT
From: zirdo@ramhb.co.nz (Pat Zalewski)

>Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 09:56:13 -0800
>From: joshua geller
>
>
>Alchemy forum writes:
> > Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 09:17:47 -0500
> > From: kcrist@gate.net
>
> > one can read paracelsus for instance and "believe" they understand
> > alchemy. but it is and will allways remain a belief. there isnt
> > much value in beliving in anything. the moment a belief becomes
> > part of a persons mental agenda doubt comes in. as taoism states:
> > those who speak do not know.
>
>belief is error.
>
>josh
>
>
>Speaking of Taoism and Lao Tszu's quote of `He who speaks does not know
and he who knows does not speak'. Since he took 12,000 words or more to say
it , it meant , by his own analogy, he didn't know what he was talking about
in the first place.

Pat zalewski

Tue Jan 30 09:43:15 1996
Subject: 0064 re-creation

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 20:30:57 -0700
From: leslieg@indirect.com (leslie grollman)

charlie - you wrote that we should 'take apart' and put 'back together'.
how can we re-create the original and keep it pure? by the attempt, are we not adding
something new?

leslie

Tue Jan 30 12:01:17 1996
Subject: 0065 Aurum Potabile

From: "Jon Marshall"
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 21:14:55 -0800

Adam mentions francis anthony the famous english exponent of aurum potabile.
A recipe purporting to be his, is printed in the waite version of collectanea
chemica, and is also printed as a separate pamphlet by JD Holmes.

Sadly thouogh it is a short pamphlet, it is too much for me to transcribe.
Roughly Antonie tells you how to make the menstrum out of strong red wine
vinsgar and ashes of tin
take the gold, file it put in a pot with salt, heat grind, heat grind....
wash it- separate the calx from the gold, mix with salt repeat.
take the calx mix with the menstrum, heat, pour of the liquor distill it until
thick, and dry it out- grind this, repeat (more or less)

it is doubtful there would be any gold in this at all.

Paraselsus distinguishes between quintessance of gold (which seems to be an oil
of gold) and potable gold.
sadly paracelsus's recipe for potable gold apparantly starts:
"Take potable gold, pulverized...."
from then on you mix it with salt and vinegar- distill till loss of savour- then
mix with water of life (basically a compound of many herbs and ardent wine).
it appears the proceedure continues from there to make the quintessence.

see waite's paracelsus vol 2 p 28 footnote (archidoxies book 4).

I have a number of other recipes, which i would think would finish up with
little gold in them- though paracelsus insists that wereas quintessence cannot
be reduced to gold, aurum potabile can.

It wold seem to me that the after all the distillings and remixings the gold in
these medicines might possibly function at a homeopathic level.

jon

Tue Jan 30 12:38:59 1996
Subject: 0066 Rosarium philosophorum

Does anyone know where the German verses in the 1550 'Rosarium Philosophorum' come from? There were most likely taken from a German manuscript. Perhaps this manuscript also included drawings from which the Rosarium woodcuts were taken? At least one of these figures was taken from the early 15th century 'Buch der heiligen dreifaltigkeit', but I have not been able to find a source for the complete series.

Also has anyone done any work on the earlier Rosary of Arnold de Villa Nova, particularly its relation to the 'Rosarium philosophorum'.

Adam McLean

Tue Jan 30 16:15:16 1996
Subject: 0067 Aurum potabile

Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 10:17:06 -0500
From: Gilbert Arnold

One western method I am familiar with involves circulating a specially
prepared menstruum over a specially prepared gold calx. An ester results.
This ester is carefully distilled at low temperature in a special apparatus in
such a fashion as that no atomic (physical) gold comes over.

Bits and pieces of this technique are described in Valentinus, Glauber and
other writings.

Tue Jan 30 17:45:44 1996
Subject: 0068 answers?, questions ...

Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 12:07:56 -0500
From: todd@alkhemy.com (Todd R. Rossman)

>Date: Tue, 30 Jan 96 13:00 NZDT
>From: zirdo@ramhb.co.nz (Pat Zalewski)
>>Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 09:56:13 -0800
>>From: joshua geller
>> > Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 09:17:47 -0500
>> > From: kcrist@gate.net
>> > one can read paracelsus for instance and "believe" they understand
>> > alchemy. but it is and will allways remain a belief. there isnt
>> > much value in beliving in anything. the moment a belief becomes
>> > part of a persons mental agenda doubt comes in. as taoism states:
>> > those who speak do not know.
>>
>>belief is error.
>>
>>josh
>>
>Speaking of Taoism and Lao Tszu's quote of `He who speaks does not know
>and he who knows does not speak'. Since he took 12,000 words or more to say
>it , it meant , by his own analogy, he didn't know what he was talking about
>in the first place.
>
>Pat zalewski

- But he was *writing*, not speaking! ;-)
Ah, most people quote this yet out of context and its original meaning:

He who knows does not speak.
He who speaks does not know.
Block all the passages!
Shut all the doors!
Blunt all edges!
Untie all tangles!
Harmonize all lights!
Unite the worlds into one whole!
This is called the Mystical Whole,
Which you cannot court after nor shun,
Benefit nor harm, honour nor humble.
Therefore, it is the Highest of the world.

It seems to me one can glean a little truth after a quick read I would
argue that Lao Tzu did an admirable job of saying so much with so little!
Some people just immediately understand one another, whether it is across
time via writings or in the "here-and-now" with words, media, gestures,
etc.

Now why should belief be considered an error? Why doubt and construe some
"mental agenda" behind belief? (Are we using the same words and language,
Josh? What is of value then?)

One may have justified belief in specific cases that omit normally
prescribed prequisites. Either singularly or in groups such important
information as direct perception, reasons, motives, etc may be omitted yet
we understand or believe.

I we could include a few philosophers into the conversation, maybe
Nietzsche would silence Lao Tzu with "Doubt makes the best pillow" and
Wittgenstein would have the last tat of "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof
one must be silent."

Todd

Tue Jan 30 21:25:20 1996
Subject: 0069 Christianity and Alchemy

Date: 30 Jan 96 13:34:28 EST
From: MARVIN LOWES <73551.655@compuserve.com>

On Mon, 29 Jan 1996 15:36:17, G. Leake wrote:

*One wonders whether the spiritual context of alchemy and Christianity
*might have had some common root or shared heritage in the ancient world?

No way! The divison is between Christianity and Alchemy is crucial. Alchemy is a
science with experiments that can be consistently recreated. Relgion is a step
in the dark, a never to be proved belief.

Please don't flame me. I'm just trying to say something here - I know alchemy
seems like a religion in that it contains beliefs, and I know that the rules of
science change over the centuries - but surely Alchemy was the science of the
Medieval age and thus atttacked by the Church as a threat to its authority.

When "the dark ages" ended and science as we knew it began, it was men like
Bacon, the first great empericist, who turned on Alchemy. In the end Bacon's
tradition ends up with men like Russell, who spent his life trying to convince
the world that religion was simply unbelievable. Christians utimatly have to
choosen between believing in immortality or mortality.

Maybe the problem with our perception comes becayse we have been raised in a
world where alchemy is no longer a science but virtually a fringe religion or
cult, an alternative to Christianity on the modern pallatte of religions?

I say this pleading that I am not trying to insult anyone, that I hold no hatred
for any man because of his relgion or belief or lack of them, that I apoligise
in advance if I have offended anyone with what may be a very naive approach to
George's comment, butI really would like to hear what other people feel about
this subject.

In fact, could the power of alchemy - and the power of religion - come from
their unalterably opposed heritage - their " forms of life"?

30/01/96

+++++++++++++++++
"Humnan beings agree in the language they use. This is not agreement in
opinions, but in forms of life"

Ludwig Wittgenstein (1890-1950)

Tue Jan 30 21:27:36 1996
Subject: 0070 Self-hatred

From: STUART INMAN
Date: 30 Jan 96 19:12:30 GMT

I was puzzling over this question and thought that a few comments
might not be out of place. If we use the term self-destruction rather
than hatred and, as John says, link it with resistance to
transformation, it does indeed make a lot of sense to me, and has a
personal link with alchemical ideas, if only tangentially.

To explain I will have to tell a personal tale, fortunately not too
much of a true confession. First though I would like to add another
focus that was relevant to these circumstances, THE HIDDEN ORDER OF
ART by Anton Ehrenzweig.

Ehrenzweig proposes amodel of creativity using terms normally
relating to mental illness, but giving them meanings that actually
suggest a rather more normal mental and emotional functioning.
However we can probably agree that it is a bit difficult to agree as
to what normal might be...

His account gives stages of the creative act then:

1. The schizoid stage in which the existing structure of the self is
disrupted by a new impulse. This can be very painful as it involves
the destruction of the self-image and of all certainty.

2. The manic/oceanic stage. Typically ecstatic one is lost in the
impulses of the Id (or substitute your own favorite psychological
term). One is sunk into subjectivity, obeying impulse.

3. The depressive phase. Not always as bad as it sounds, a return to
reality. It is also an integrating phase in which the oceanic impulse
is incorporated into the ego.

Obviously there are many limitations to a psychological model, and I
would not wish to suggest any great originality here, but it was
something with which I identified while also identifying with
Alchemical language and working, to some degree with alchemical
symbols.

In April 1992 I went to Prague for a small exhibition of my drawings.
For some months I had been working consciously with alchemical images
with varying degrees of directness and of success. The subject of
Alchemy came up in meetings with Martin Stejskal and with another
Hermetic artist, Pavel Turnovsky. I went back to London enthused, but
suddenly was unable to paint.

Every attempt at painting or drawing was met with frustration, all
the forms I used became impossible - a mess.

After about six months I was just about ready to give up entirely, as
the business of drawing seemed to be becoming quite dangerous for my
emotional state (and I am not the unstable sort generally). I was
getting savage depressions every time I picked up a pencil and a
sense of failure. Admittedly this was the culmination of a process
that had been building up for some time.

At this point the phrase "SOLVE ET COAGULA" started to come into my
mind and I began to see what was happening as the dissolution of what
had gone before. I began to make random marks, automatic drawings
almost. From this something new started to evolve, but it was no
longer under my control. I don't mean like possession, just that I
had to let the drawing do what IT wanted, not what I wanted.

It stayed at this level for about two years, then just as suddenly
the drawings began to assume a greater degree of formality and of
representation. Faces appeared, and landscapes, and the vanished
again. I was able to work thematically again, but was unable to force
it. What was very important though was that the extreme mental
pressure that had thrust me into this venture had all but gone,
replaced by a sense of freedom.

Psychologically, and if you like, spiritually this process had made
me freer by making me stop trying to control the creative process.
But it also turned me towards a more direct study of Alchemy,
something I had effectively sidestepped for many years. I could see
that I had been through the Solve et Coagula on a psychological level
(and in fact always had been, as is everone) but how was this to
relate to ther levels, other understandings?

The business of painting is, in any case, often compared to alchemy,
partly to do with the mixing of colours. Also I suppose because a bit
of cloth, some oil and mud are turned into something very precious,
and the prima materia of the imagery is also worked upon.

I know that discussion of my work is of very limited use without
seeing some examples to illustrate the process, but it also led to an
opening up of this field for me. For instance I was able to meet
Jorge Camacho, co-author of the book New Alchemical Heraldry (For
some reason the exact tiles in both French and Latin escape me just
now) who was able to fuel my interest and a sense that those very
difficult-seeming books might be at least partly understood.

I hope this rather lengthy reply goes some way to answering John's
questions, I would be happy to comment again on this with greater
brevity. A couple more message in a few days I hope, also shorter!

Stuart Inman

(Je recherche l'or du temp)

Tue Jan 30 21:33:51 1996
Subject: 0071 answers?, questions ...

Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 10:51:57 -0800
From: subrider@ix.netcom.com (Charlie Richards )

You wrote:
>
>Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 09:56:13 -0800
>From: joshua geller
>
>
>Alchemy forum writes:
> > Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 09:17:47 -0500
> > From: kcrist@gate.net
>
> > one can read paracelsus for instance and "believe" they understand
> > alchemy. but it is and will allways remain a belief. there isnt
> > much value in beliving in anything. the moment a belief becomes
> > part of a persons mental agenda doubt comes in. as taoism states:
> > those who speak do not know.
>
>belief is error.
>
>josh
>
>
How about where your thoughts are you are also...or, as you beleive so
it will be established unto you.

What you believe is what you will HAVE in your life. If you believe
YOU are something...sure enough you will become that.

Here is another you should memoreze..."If you argue for your
limitations long enough....sure enough they will be yours".

What we believe, is the foundation of US. Take away belief, and you
take away, hope, the future,and joy in your life. Your belief system
is the inner you, that chlothes the outer you in your own reality.

If fact your statement is a belief! A eronious one, but a belief. To
state that when you believe doubt creeps in is...well how should I put
this for delicate eyes...UNFOUNDED. Reality is just the opposite. To
not believe is to doube. Belief makes one have a will of steel and
that is the foundation of Alchemy.

If you do not BELIEVE that it is possible to make the Stone, if you do
not BELIEVE otheres have gone before us...then why bother. For that
matter why bother living at all...if you believe in NOTHING...THAT IS
WHAT YOU WILL HAVE, NOTHING.

Charlie

Tue Jan 30 21:34:29 1996
Subject: 0072 Aurum Potabile

Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 11:05:46 -0800
From: subrider@ix.netcom.com (Charlie Richards )

I have several methods of making potable gold. If you are interested.

The first is to just find it naturally. I have tested water from all
over the world and most of it had more than background readings of gold
and some of it I mined for it.

The simplest way to find gold in water is as follows: Take a gallon of
water, stir in iron oxide powder. Stir for an hour, then add drop by
drop ammonia till you see a gell appear.

Let it settle and filter, dry the filterate and assay or send for
testing.

Second, method that I know of is to simply take a gold coin or like and
heat it up till it is red hot and dunk it into pure water. Do this ten
times and drink it twice a day.

Be careful though. You can get gold poisioning. I found the natural
gold in water by diging a well on my ranch and geting sick from it.
You got it GOLD. It took me some time but I succedded in geting the
gold out of the water. 12 ounces per ton of water. That is a rare
thing, having such a high concentration but it does happen. Usually it
is in parts per million.

Another way that I developed, is to take water, sulpheric acid, urea,
thiourea, ferric oxide and gold. This is safe enough to do in the palm
of your hand...the gold will dance like a fizzie until disolved. The
ph changes as the gold is disolved. If you have the ingreadents
proper...you can drink it. It does taste like crap, but it is liquid
gold.

Charlie

Tue Jan 30 21:35:13 1996
Subject: 0073 answers?, questions ...

Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 11:08:33 -0800
From: subrider@ix.netcom.com (Charlie Richards )

You wrote:
>
>Date: Sun, 28 Jan 96 14:07 PST
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
>At 17:24 96/01/28 +0000,ubrider@ix.netcom.com (Charlie Richards )
wrote:
>
>>>
>>The Alchemical texts should be classified into several catagories.
>>
>>Some of them are recipies and scientific observations written in a
>>toungue that would not get the writer burned at the stake.
>>
>>Most of them are pure popy cock. Mindless dribble written simply to
>>get someone to buy them and make money.
>>
>>Many are written by men so advanced in insanity by lead poisioning as

>>to be absurd.
>>
>>Charlie
>
>
>Thank you Charlie for clarifiing the writings of some. The trick is
to be
>able to determine which is which. But it is a futher reminder that
each
>piece of information that one receives must be tested against all the
>information that you have received before. Only then can one
determine
>whether to acept the information or reject it.
>
>Norm
>
Not necessarly Norm, sometimes it is just the opposite. You read the
junk first...and read something that proves everything else to be
wrong.

That is the basis of scientific break throughs. It makes the past
obsolete.

Charlie

Tue Jan 30 21:36:05 1996
Subject: 0074 re-creation

Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 11:16:03 -0800
From: subrider@ix.netcom.com (Charlie Richards )

You wrote:
>
>Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 20:30:57 -0700
>From: leslieg@indirect.com (leslie grollman)
>
>charlie - you wrote that we should 'take apart' and put 'back
together'.
>how can we re-create the original and keep it pure? by the attempt,
are we
>not adding
>something new?
>
>leslie
>
>
You mis the point! But what in nature is pure anyway? Chaos rules and
curruptness is his sister. I have found nothing pure in nature and I
have been at this a very, very long time.

You should look at the obvious..."If you can make a rock, you can
understand how to unmake it". Do you know what it takes to MAKE a
rock.

When you can make a rock, you will understand how nature made hers and
then you will understand how to take it appart and put it back togather
again. Then there will be nothing you will see that you will not in
confidance know how it is made and how it stays togather.

This knowledge can only be gained by doing. This lesson is the first
and the last you will ever need to get to where you want to go.

Charlie

Tue Jan 30 21:37:04 1996
Subject: 0075 Questions for YOU ...

Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 11:25:02 -0800
From: subrider@ix.netcom.com (Charlie Richards )
Subject: Re: 0056 Questions for YOU ...

You wrote:
>
>Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 10:02:47 -0800
>From: joshua geller
>
>Mr. Charles Richards writes:
>> A.J.Le Sage writes:
>
>> > I have alwasys been under the opinon that people only
>> > blow themselves up by misunderstanding the message.
>
> > Yes, there are those that can open the books and understand what
the
> > writer was trying to say.
>
> > And yes, it is very, VERY, important to know what they are saying.
We
> > are dealing with very toxic substances and explosive mixtures
> > sometimes.
>
>in these matters, sir, specificity is almost always of greater utility
>than generality. would you care to enumerate the specific dangers
>associated with sulfur compounds of antimony, with heavy metals
>generally, the dangers associated with various heavy metals when mixed
>with nitrate salts, of acids etc? or shall we expect only further
vague,
>general and portentous remarks?
>
> > The further you go the more dangerous it is. There are
> > many accounts of Alchemists blowing themselves up.
>
>as I say, specific dangers of laboratory procedures (as have been
>posted here before) might very well be of interest and use to the
>reader of this list. you will of course forgive me for saying, sir,
>that you have posted nothing of the kind here.
>
> > And YES there are those that have finished the Great Work.
>
>so you keep saying. can you demonstrate this?
>
>best regards,
>
>josh
>
Josh,
I appreciate your candor, but if you do not take the few sentenses I
write and get volumes out of them, then you are not ready to know.

Alchemy is learned in two ways. Lifetime upon lifetime, or at the feet
of one who has.

If you take the first path, then you don't need me or anyone else to
tell you anything, because you, by now should know. If you take the
later, splatering the feet of your teacher with mud will get you
thrown out.

I decide who I will teach, and no one else. I weigh each applicant and
I decide who I will take time with and who I will put back to grow.

So, you want to try this again?

Charlie

Tue Jan 30 21:47:47 1996
Subject: 0076 Aurum Potabile

Charlie Richards writes:

> I found the natural
>gold in water by diging a well on my ranch and geting sick from it.
>You got it GOLD. It took me some time but I succedded in geting the
>gold out of the water. 12 ounces per ton of water. That is a rare
>thing, having such a high concentration but it does happen. Usually it
>is in parts per million.

This is absolute nonsense. 12 ounces a ton is 1 part in 3000.

Adam McLean

Tue Jan 30 22:43:09 1996
Subject: 0077 Aurum Potabile

Charlie Richards writes

>Another way that I developed, is to take water, sulpheric acid, urea,
>thiourea, ferric oxide and gold. This is safe enough to do in the palm
>of your hand...the gold will dance like a fizzie until disolved. The
>ph changes as the gold is disolved. If you have the ingreadents
>proper...you can drink it. It does taste like crap, but it is liquid
>gold.

This is absolute nonsense. Pure fantasy. The alchemists discovered that only aqua regia (a mixture of nitric and hydrochloric acids) will dissolve gold.

To make such a statement as the above, is either to play silly games or is the result of a complete misunderstanding of the properties of substances in alchemy. Can anyone believe that you have actually done any practical alchemical work?

Adam McLean

Wed Jan 31 08:45:10 1996
Subject: 0078 Rosicrucians?

Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 17:53:31 -0700 (MST)
From: Tom Hennessy

Adam.

Are you a Rosicruscian?

I remember someone pronouncing that they
were 'twelfth'.. degree somewhere .. was that you?

I ask because I have in my possession a Rosy Manual .. and I wish to know
.. WHAT .. feelings anyone has on the subject of 'discussing' its
contents in the forum?

It is basically because someone had mentioned that they believed
'Bacon'.. was NOT.. a 'rosy'.. but the Manual 'definately'.. states he
was quite a ways 'up there'.. an 'imperator'.. no less.

Who loves ya. Tom
http://www.nucleus.com/watchman

Wed Jan 31 08:46:38 1996
Subject: 0079 answers?, questions ...

Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 20:40:17 -0500
From: kcrist

josh:
belief can only come from the known. the known is the past the last moment or 40
centuries ago it is old it is conditioning it is the cause of fear. we believe
through fear. thought breeds fear. there is the other way and that is the way of
alchemy
kirk

Wed Jan 31 08:47:31 1996
Subject: 0080 Saltpeter

Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 21:11:47 -0500
From: Ahmad Hassan

I am trying to find the Latin text (or texts) of the first recipe of
solutive waters in chapter xxiii of Geber's " Of the Invention of Verity
or Perfection". If there are several Latin versions for this work what
were the words used for saltpeter in each of them? I am trying to study
the origins and the developments of the words saltpeter and niter until
they took their present meanings. I am familiar with the works of
Partington and Needham.

Wed Jan 31 08:49:47 1996
Subject: 0081 Rosarium philosophorum

Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 16:52:28 +1100
From: Petra Gottlieb

>Does anyone know where the German verses in the 1550 'Rosarium
>Philosophorum' come from? There were most likely taken from a German
>manuscript. Perhaps this manuscript also included drawings from which the
>Rosarium woodcuts were taken? At least one of these figures was taken from
>the early 15th century 'Buch der heiligen dreifaltigkeit', but I have not
>been able to find a source for the complete series.
>
>Also has anyone done any work on the earlier Rosary of Arnold de Villa Nova,
>particularly its relation to the 'Rosarium philosophorum'.
>
>Adam McLean
>
>
>Adam, in "Die Entwicklungsgeschichte der Chemie" by H.E. Fierz-David I
found the following reference on page 65:
ROSARIUM PHILOSOPHORUM ( ARTIS AURIFERAE, 2.Vol. - Basel 1593, page 247)
eine um die Mitte des 14. Jahrhunderts entstandene synoptische Schrift, in
welcher die Vision des Arisleus auch enthalten ist. Dort hei�t es:
"Gabricus (i.e. Tabritius) aber starb sogleich nach dem Beischlaf mit
Beja...etc.
Hope this is what you were looking for.
Best wishes
---
Petra Christiane Gottlieb
***OHNE LIEBE KEINE KUNST (Paracelsus)
WITHOUT LOVE THERE IS NO ART***

Wed Jan 31 11:13:35 1996
Subject: 0082 Rosicrucians?

Tom Hennesey writes:-

>Are you a Rosicrucian?

>I remember someone pronouncing that they
>were 'twelfth'.. degree somewhere .. was that you?

Actually I am not a member of any esoteric group. Not even a Rosicrucian one.
This partly reflects my personality - I don't like joining groups - but it also give me the freedom to get on with people from all sorts of groups and organisations.
I have no agenda determined by my membership of any esoteric group.

Tom also writes:-

>I have in my possession a Rosy Manual .. and I wish to know
>.. WHAT .. feelings anyone has on the subject of 'discussing' its
>contents in the forum?
>It is basically because someone had mentioned that they believed
>'Bacon'.. was NOT.. a 'rosy'.. but the Manual 'definately'.. states he
>was quite a ways 'up there'.. an 'imperator'.. no less.

Perhaps Tom should let us know what particular organisation produced this manual. There has to readjust ones mind by reading and pondering deeply on unfamiliar ideas, until one eventually comes to perceive their The position of Bacon is well worth discussing. As a founder of the scientific method he marked the beginning of an important change in our way of looking at the physical world, which led to the rise of scientific chemistry in the 18th century. That fact that various groups have found it necessary to make him into a 'Rosicrucian' master, is interesting. This idea dates from the end of the 19th century, I believe. I don't know any suggestion from Bacon's contemporaries, that he was involved in 'Rosicrucian' or other esoteric groups.

Adam McLean

Wed Jan 31 11:13:45 1996
Subject: 0083 Saltpeter

Dear Ahmad Hassan,

I have access to these early editions of Geber in the Ferguson collection here in Glasgow.

[Liber Geberi qui flos naturarum vocatur.] [1473]
[Summa perfectionis magisterii...] [1475?]
[Summa perfectionis magisterii...] [1490]
Summa perfectionis magisterij... 1542

De alchimia. Libri tres. [1529]
De alchimia. Libri tres. [1531]
De alchemia traditio summ� perfectionis in duos libros divisa. 1598

[There are also many 17th century editions and compendia.]

The 'De Alchimia' volumes definitely contain the text " Of the Invention of Verity
or Perfection". Next time I am in the Library I will look at these volumes for you and check chapter xxiii for the use of the word 'saltpeter'.

It may take a week or two, but I can find out the information you require.

Adam McLean

Wed Jan 31 13:51:47 1996
Subject: 0084 FRENCH texte alch

From: ducreux thierry
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 12:51:51 +0100

Existe t il un serveur sur lequel figure des textes alchimiques.
Je pense precisement ` :
- DUJOLS
- BASILE VALENTIN
Merci,
Thierry.

Wed Jan 31 14:26:43 1996
Subject: 0085 Rosicrucians?

From: John E. Myers
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 9:11:50 EST5EDT

>From: Tom Hennessy
>I ask because I have in my possession a Rosy Manual .. and I wish to
>know
>.. WHAT .. feelings anyone has on the subject of 'discussing' its
>contents in the forum?
>

I consider the original Rosicrucians to have been Alchemists.
No telling what's in that little book of yours, though. :)

J.E.M. / "All things come to * *
myersj@gactr.uga.edu / he who waits." * * * *
alt.immortal / I have time. * * *
* * * *
* *

Wed Jan 31 16:54:20 1996
Subject: 0086 Aurum potabile

Date: Wed, 31 Jan 96 09:04:56 CST
From: hill@ra.timeplex.com (dan hill ON RA SERVER)

I tried some of the potable gold at Hanz N`s House a few years ago.
It had almost a sparkling feel on my tongue. Does anyone know what
is actually in the liquid and is it safe? All I had was a few drops
under the tongue but I felt brave that day.

LVX

Wed Jan 31 18:53:25 1996
Subject: 0087 Aurum Potabile

Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 09:36:38 -0800
From: joshua geller

Alchemy forum writes:
> Charlie Richards writes

> >Another way that I developed, is to take water, sulpheric acid, urea,
> >thiourea, ferric oxide and gold. This is safe enough to do in the palm
> >of your hand...the gold will dance like a fizzie until disolved. The
> >ph changes as the gold is disolved. If you have the ingreadents
> >proper...you can drink it. It does taste like crap, but it is liquid
> >gold.

> This is absolute nonsense. Pure fantasy. The alchemists discovered that
> only aqua regia (a mixture of nitric and hydrochloric acids) will
> dissolve gold.

well, technically, gold will dissolve in mercury. it is not (of
course) chemically changed by this and is easily recovered (by as
simple a method as sieving through chamois or by more dangerous
methods as heating the mix to drive away the mercury). some of the
literature seems to imply that "our mercury" or some other thing
referred to as mercury is mercury treated in some fashion in with
antimony.

> To make such a statement as the above, is either to play silly games or is
> the result of a complete misunderstanding of the properties of substances in
> alchemy. Can anyone believe that you have actually done any practical
> alchemical work?

I am very glad that someone else besides me has seen this.

josh

Wed Jan 31 18:54:35 1996
Subject: 0088 Alchemy and the bible

Date: 31 Jan 96 12:54:42 EST
From: Beat Krummenacher

In the bible passages are found, which are very well alchemical. Two examples
should illustrate this:

1) Moses and the golden calf: The bible says, that Moses took the golden
calf, burnt it and gave it to drink the people. After that the people were
opened the eyes, and it recognized, that it had wrong dealt.

This passage is often cited by alchemists of past centuries as evidence for
alchemy in the bible. But how the noble gold can be burnt and drink? First the
alchemists manufacture for the preparation of aurum potabile a metallic
lime from gold. One method is the amalgamation of gold with mercury followed
by distillation of the mercury. Metallic gold with a very large inner surface
stays
behind. In this way gold is opened and can more simply be brought
in solution. Such gold is often called gold lime. After that the gold lime can
be dissolved in the philosophical mercury, from which a reddish to
blood-red tincture results. This is evaporated and the remainder dissolved
in alcohol. You receive a red sweetish fluid, which is the aurum potabile.
Beside that there are still further methods of preparing, which however
basically
are similar. One important effect of the potable gold is the expansion
of the sensual abilities. But also the understanding gains in inner processes.
In other words: The sources and consequences of the own acts become
more conscious. If therefore the people Israel should have received from
Moses potable gold, so the following judgment of the people in his wrong
behavior hardly astonishes.

2) The song of Solomon: Who only has understood a little of the symbolism
of the rework in the great work of alchemy, finds in the song of Solomon an
excellent description of the individual levels of the great work. You naturally
can
understand the song also as anthem to love, above all its bodily manifestation.
However the parallels to the great work are very striking.

With this I would not like recommending to study the bible, if one wants to
penetrate into alchemy. There are much better and more detailed writings for
this purpose. Alchemical passages from the bible are historically interesting,
because they illustrate, that already at that time with it was alchemically
worked
with success.

Lapis

Wed Jan 31 21:30:34 1996
Subject: 0089 Taschen Alchemy Book

Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 20:23:41 +0000
From: Mark Bennett

Hello out there,

I just received the Taschen art book catalogue for 1996 and they have the
following book for 29.99 US or 19.99 sterling:

Alechemy & Mysticism- Hermetic Museum
Alexandder Roob
ISBN 3-8228-8653-X
704pp
c 700 ills
Fall 96

The quality of Taschen is very high and the colour reproduction in just
there catalogue is supurb. They will also be doing a postcard book at the
same time.

Taschen UK (0171) 437 4350
Taschen America (212) 683 3377

Mark Bennett
Editor/Publisher - Black Ice Magazine
Executive Producer - Perspectives

Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.--Frank Zappa

Wed Jan 31 21:31:42 1996
Subject: 0090 Blood loss and alchemy

Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 10:45:31 -1000
From: Anastasy Tynan

>"Iron loss through menstration is a blessing in disguise."
>
>And so is donating blood (the modern form of blood-letting). ; )
> Iron loss through menstration is a blessing in
>disguise.

Although Chinese medicine uses blood-letting for the removal of toxic heat
(among other things), the rule of thumb is conservation of bodily fluids.

Wed Jan 31 21:46:42 1996
Subject: 0091 Rosicrucians?

Date: Thu, 01 Feb 1996 07:23:19 +1000
From: xero

Tom wrote

>I have in my possession a Rosy Manual .. and I wish to know
>.. WHAT .. feelings anyone has on the subject of 'discussing' its
>contents in the forum?

Do you ask this because the manual is supposedly secret
or because it is not directly relevant to alchemy?

If the latter, it should probably not be discussed on this forum.

There is a general occult forum, entitle ARCANA.
send the message subscribe ARCANA (your name) on the second line to

I am interested in talking about it,
but that would seem the most appropriate arena for doing so.

Wed Jan 31 21:51:23 1996
Subject: 0092 Rosicrucians?

Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 10:51:17 -1000
From: Anastasy Tynan

>Adam.
>Are you a Rosicruscian?

>I ask because I have in my possession a Rosy Manual .. and I wish to know
>.. WHAT .. feelings anyone has on the subject of 'discussing' its
>contents in the forum?

Perhaps this belongs at alt.secret societies and orders.

Cheers,
A.

Wed Jan 31 21:49:45 1996
Subject: 0093 Questions for YOU ...

Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 16:15:01 -0500 (EST)
From: Claude Gagnon

On Mon, 29 Jan 1996, Alchemy forum wrote:

> Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 09:15:04 -0600
> From: taliesin@mail.utexas.edu (George Randall Leake III)
>
> >Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 10:06:00 -0700 (MST)
> >From: Tom Hennessy
> >
> >The whole thing with alchemy and the Bible is that they don't seem to
> >come together except by spirituality.
> >I cannot find any mention of 'alchemy'.. in the Bible.
> >He was a bit interested in 'transmutation'.. though. :)
> ***
> *Might some of his miracles like multiplying bread be considered in the
> realm of alchemy?
>
> *But as you suggest, the metaphor of transmutation is not too far off from
> Christian redemption (except one must accept Jesus specifically, and/or go
> to his church, get baptized, depending on yr sect).
>
> *One wonders whether the spiritual context of alchemy and Christianity
> might have had some common root or shared heritage in the ancient world?
>
> -G.Leake, 512-471-9117 taliesin@mail.utexas.edu
>
> "To be ignorant of what occurred before you were born is to remain always a
> child."
> -Cicero
> "Oh age! oh letters! It is a joy to be alive!...Woe to you, barbarians!"
> -Ulrich von Hutten, 1518, Poet Laureate of the German Empire
>

I think that the most interesting recent reference for the comparaison
between alchemy and the Bible is the second chapter (Biblical figures as
alchemists) of Raphael Patae's book titled The Jewish alchemist which has
been often cited on this forum.
Claude Gagnon

Wed Jan 31 23:12:40 1996
Subject: 0094 FRENCH : combien de matieres ?

Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 22:35:58 +0000
From: "Christian , Daniel Dumolard"

Bonjour Jerry,

> combien de portes (ou materiaux) y-a-t-il? Est-ce qu'ils different
> pour la voia seche et la voie humide?
Je n'ai aucune idee, ni du nombre de matieres necessaires pour la
realisation du "Dissolvant universel" (autrement appellee la "Medecine
Universelle", d'apres Fulcanelli), ni de ce qui pourrait vraiment separer la
voie dite "seche" de la voie dite "humide". Et la voie dite "breve" ,
est-elle comme la "seche", ou bien est-ce encore autre chose ?
Je manque tellement de bases philosophiques - hermetiques - pour comprendre
tout ca, que je ne puis rien en dire de valable !!
>Je sais que l'antimoine es
t> assez populaire en France comme matiere premiere. Mais, dans votre
> citation, la supposition est clairement avancee qu'on doit eliminer
> la stibine comme la matiere premiere. De quele maniere dois-je lire
> ce passage de Fulcanelli?
Comme vous, je pense que, par ce passage, Fulcanelli rejette la stibine
fomellement.

> une langue parfaitement. Pout moi, tous les deux langues, francais et
> anglais, sont des langues entrageres.
Je vois dans l'en-tete de votre message que l'heure a laquelle est ecrit
votre message est a GMT - 5 heures !
D'ou ecrivez-vous, et de quelle nationalite estes-vous, sans indiscretion ?
En tout cas, bravo pour votre "francais" : il est tout a fait comprehensible.
A bientot, Christian
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christian et Daniel DUMOLARD
6, rue de la Libert�
38000 Grenoble, France
(+33)76443992
E-mail dumolard@alpes-net.fr
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wed Jan 31 23:13:30 1996
Subject: 0095 FRENCH les soufres

Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 22:36:11 +0000
From: "Christian , Daniel Dumolard"

Bonjour Thierry,

>Je suis de ton avis sur les sulfures.
>De plus un GUIDICELLI DE CRESSAC le precise dans son livre
>"Pour la rose rouge et la croix d'or".
Je n'ai pas eu le plaisir de livre son livre. Si tu l'as, je te propose que
tu me le pretes, j'aurai bien un livre a te preter en echange qui pourrait
t'interresser.
Si je te fais cette proposition, c'est que j'ai decouvert avec interet dans
ton message que tu habites dans la region grenobloise. Si tu le souhaites,
rencontrons-nous de visu. Il y a mes coordonn�es a la fin de mon message,
comme signature. Appelles-moi donc en vocal.

>Connais tu la voie de roger CARO sur le cinabre ?

J'en ai entendu parler, et ai vu quelques photos. Je n'ai pas d'avis.
Je constate juste, une fois de plus, qu'il s'agisse du plomb (galene),
mercure (cinabre) ou de l'antimoine (stibine), on retrouve ce mineralisateur
tant decrie et meprise, ce diable, ce stryge cornu, griffu (parce qu'il
s'allie, en adherant, fortement a presque tous les metaux)(cf caisson de
Dampierre/Boutonne commente par Fulcanelli "Mas penado, mas perdido y menos
arepantido"), bref, le pauvre soufre.

Mais tout ca n'oriente en rien, a mon avis, sur la resolution de la grande
question : en alchimie operative, qu'est-ce qui diffrencie la chimie de
l'alchimie ?
Une fois cette question resolue, je pense que le reste suit bien plus
facilement !

Au plaisir de ta reponse (de tes reponses).
Christian
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christian et Daniel DUMOLARD
6, rue de la Libert�
38000 Grenoble, France
(+33)76443992
E-mail dumolard@alpes-net.fr
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thu Feb 01 09:05:12 1996
Subject: 0096 Aurum Potabile

Date: Wed, 31 Jan 96 17:09:48 PST
From: A.J.Le Sage

Dispite what some would have use belive I
think you will all find that it is not possible
to make potable gold without first making
the Tinture of the Philosophers. If anyone wants
to claim that they have made such a thing please
could they also provide a discription of some
of it's lesser known qualites so that we can be sure
of the truth behind such a statement. Further:: I think
it will be found that the potable gold is the Tinture in
suspention.

Regards to Al

---------------Original Message---------------
From: "Jon Marshall"
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 21:14:55 -0800

Adam mentions francis anthony the famous english exponent of aurum potabile.
A recipe purporting to be his, is printed in the waite version of collectanea
chemica, and is also printed as a separate pamphlet by JD Holmes.

Sadly thouogh it is a short pamphlet, it is too much for me to transcribe.
Roughly Antonie tells you how to make the menstrum out of strong red wine
vinsgar and ashes of tin
take the gold, file it put in a pot with salt, heat grind, heat grind....
wash it- separate the calx from the gold, mix with salt repeat.
take the calx mix with the menstrum, heat, pour of the liquor distill it until
thick, and dry it out- grind this, repeat (more or less)

it is doubtful there would be any gold in this at all.

Paraselsus distinguishes between quintessance of gold (which seems to be an oil
of gold) and potable gold.
sadly paracelsus's recipe for potable gold apparantly starts:
"Take potable gold, pulverized...."
from then on you mix it with salt and vinegar- distill till loss of savour-
then
mix with water of life (basically a compound of many herbs and ardent wine).
it appears the proceedure continues from there to make the quintessence.

see waite's paracelsus vol 2 p 28 footnote (archidoxies book 4).

I have a number of other recipes, which i would think would finish up with
little gold in them- though paracelsus insists that wereas quintessence cannot
be reduced to gold, aurum potabile can.

It wold seem to me that the after all the distillings and remixings the gold in
these medicines might possibly function at a homeopathic level.

jon

------------------

Thu Feb 01 09:07:00 1996
Subject: 0097 Dr John Dee

From: "Jon Marshall"
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 11:37:16 -0800

On Jan 19, 12:56pm, Francisco Linares Jauregui wrote:

>
> I am not sure this is the correct place to send this post to, so bare
> with me for a second.
>
> I am looking for the works of Dr. John Dee, in particular a book with the
> name 'The Drak Crystal' (I believe that is the name, although I am not
> entirely sure, it has to do with a crystal being used as a mirror).
>
> If anyone can point me into the right direction I will thank him/her very
> much.

lots of people here interested in John Dee. I've been waiting for one of the
experts to write, but hell...

works you should be able to find in a library

Dee a letter contining a most brief discourse apologetical 1599 (reprint 1973)
{autobiography}

Dee General and Rare memorials pertayning to the perfecte arte of navigation
1577 (reprint 1968) {ON the importance of a navy to britian, probably not
occult}

Dee Monas Hieroglphica [english translation] by CH Josten Ambix vol 12
pp84-221, 1964
Translated by JW Hamilton Jones 1947 (many subsequent editions}
{on alchemy and everything}

Dee Propaedeumata Aphoristica in Wayne Shumaker John dee on Astronomy 1978.
{interior and exterior astronomy ?}

Dee The mathematical preface to Euclid 1570, reprint 1975

Dee Heptarchia Mystica ed Robert Turner (aquarian 1986)
{spirits etc.}

Meric Casaubon A true and Faithful relation.... 1659. Many reprints.
{talking with angels, bits on alchemy here and there}

JO Halliwell, Private Diary of John Dee 1842- many reprints i think.
(autobiographical, the dates Kelly told him the great secret etc...}

Ed Kelly, Alchemical writings of trans Waite.
(the alchemy of dee's friend- the genuiness of some of these writings
is perhaps debateable)

Robert Turner, Elizabethan magic various excerpts from the 'Angelic Manuscripts'

There is a very short alchemical poem in Ashmole's Theatrum Chemicum Britanicum,

I'm sure others can add to this

jon

Thu Feb 01 09:08:22 1996
Subject: 0098 Saltpeter

Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 21:05:14 -0500
From: Ahmad Hassan

Dear Adam McLean

Thank you for the information about the early editions of Geber which
are available in the Ferguson collection in Glasgow. I am waiting with
great interest the results of your search.

Ahmad Hassan

Thu Feb 01 09:11:34 1996
Subject: 0099 Rosicrucians?

Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 21:22:19 -0700 (MST)
From: Tom Hennessy

On Wed, 31 Jan 1996, Alchemy forum wrote:

> Date: Thu, 01 Feb 1996 07:23:19 +1000
> From: xero
>
> Tom wrote
>
> >I have in my possession a Rosy Manual .. and I wish to know
> >.. WHAT .. feelings anyone has on the subject of 'discussing' its
> >contents in the forum?
>
>
> Do you ask this because the manual is supposedly secret
> or because it is not directly relevant to alchemy?
>
> If the latter, it should probably not be discussed on this forum.
>
> There is a general occult forum, entitle ARCANA.
> send the message subscribe ARCANA (your name) on the second line to
>
>
> I am interested in talking about it,
> but that would seem the most appropriate arena for doing so.

What I can read between the lines in the book is that the 'Rose'.. is
related to the mineral 'hematite'.. and what I've been able to understand
is these men or women?.. are .. usually quite intelligent.

If you will look at hematite under the microscope .. I think if I
remember correctly.. as it 'grows'.. it looks and grows like a rose. I am
not a 'crystalist'.. so I can't really make a connection with the
actually growing of it. Unless.. the growing of it.. makes known to us
how to 'remove'.. it? Maybe make it grow in the brain?

As in a long ago post of 'hematite' being the percurser of 'magnetite'?

I am not sure whether they are in any way 'connected'.. to the
Templars?.. because what I've read is the Templars and Rosicrucians are
somehow possibly both of the 'mystic'.. way?

The book contains much about crystals, magnetism and general medical
information. It seems to reflect 'mystical'.. symbolism.

Their language I believe reflects the same 'esoteric'.. as in alchemy?

Also from a book I have read.. it seems there is a saying relating to the
'mystics'.. which is "this is the artery.. and this is the vein".

I believe these fellas have known for quite a while that the iron in our
bodies is causing quite a few problems.

If these fellas are ALL.. professional.. doctors, lawyers, chemist and
the such... having such knowledge.. could be quite helpful.

Heal a man.. and he is yours for life?

Who loves ya.
Tom http://www.nucleus.com/watchman

Thu Feb 01 09:14:13 1996
Subject: 0100 Rose = hematite?

Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 23:00:27 -0700 (MST)
From: Tom Hennessy

> > Date: Thu, 01 Feb 1996 07:23:19 +1000
> > From: xero
> >
> > Tom wrote
> >
> > >I have in my possession a Rosy Manual .. and I wish to know
> > >.. WHAT .. feelings anyone has on the subject of 'discussing' its
> > >contents in the forum?
> >
> >
> > Do you ask this because the manual is supposedly secret
> > or because it is not directly relevant to alchemy?
> >
> > If the latter, it should probably not be discussed on this forum.
> >
> > There is a general occult forum, entitle ARCANA.
> > send the message subscribe ARCANA (your name) on the second line to
> >
> >
> > I am interested in talking about it,
> > but that would seem the most appropriate arena for doing so.
>
> What I can read between the lines in the book is that the 'Rose'.. is
> related to the mineral 'hematite'.. and what I've been able to understand
> is these men or women?.. are .. usually quite intelligent.
>
> If you will look at hematite under the microscope .. I think if I
> remember correctly.. as it 'grows'.. it looks and grows like a rose. I am
> not a 'crystalist'.. so I can't really make a connection with the
> actually growing of it. Unless.. the growing of it.. makes known to us
> how to 'remove'.. it? Maybe make it grow in the brain?
>
> As in a long ago
> post of 'hematite' being the percurser of 'magnetite'?
>
> I am not sure whether they are in any way 'connected'.. to the
> Templars?.. because what I've read is the Templars and Rosicrucians are
> somehow possibly both of the 'mystic'.. way?
>
> The book contains much about crystals, magnetism and general medical
> information. It seems to reflect 'mystical'.. symbolism.
>
> Their language I believe reflects the same 'esoteric'.. as in alchemy?
>
> Also from a book I have read.. it seems there is a saying relating to the
> 'mystics'.. which is "this is the artery.. and this is the vein".
>
> I believe these fellas have known for quite a while that the iron in our
> bodies is causing quite a few problems.
>
> If these fellas are ALL.. professional.. doctors, lawyers, chemist and
> the such... having such knowledge.. could be quite helpful.
>
> Heal a man.. and he is yours for life?
>
> Who loves ya.
> Tom http://www.nucleus.com/watchman