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Alchemy Forum 0101-0150From January 25th 1996, the Alchemy forum was restructured and the messages were sequentially numbered. This is an unedited extract of messages 101-150.Go to next 50 messages . Back to forum archive. Thu Feb 01 09:15:07 1996 Subject: 0101 Aurum potabile Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 22:21:19 -0800 From: William A. Stehl >Date: Wed, 31 Jan 96 09:04:56 CST >From: hill@ra.timeplex.com (dan hill ON RA SERVER) > > >I tried some of the potable gold at Hanz N`s House a few years ago. >It had almost a sparkling feel on my tongue. Does anyone know what >is actually in the liquid and is it safe? All I had was a few drops >under the tongue but I felt brave that day. > > >LVX We are in the process of making some of this material as we speak, if you like, I will keep you advised on progress, please advise... Bill "great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds" A. Einstein Thu Feb 01 09:16:37 1996 Subject: 0102 Alchemy and Electricity Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 09:23:11 +0100 From: Van den Bossche Peter Do any of you know about alchemical interpretations of Electricity? Although the classical books predate the electric age, I found an interesting statement in Fulcanelli (Demeures), which I quote (in French; accents omitted). It states the relationship between electricity, metals and fire. Le fluide electrique, silencieux, obscur et froid, parcourt son conducteur metallique sans l'influencer autrement ni manifester son passage. Mais, vient-il a rencontrer une resistance, l'energie se revele aussitot avec les qualites et sous l'aspect du feu. Un filament de lampe devient incandescent, le charbon de cornue s'embrase, le fil metallique le plus refractaire fond sur-le-champ. Or, l'electricite n'est-elle pas un feu veritable, un feu en puissance? D'ou tire-t-elle son origine, sinon de la decomposition (batteries) ou la desagregation (dynamos) des metaux, corps eminemment charges du principe igne? Are any further references known? Peter Thu Feb 01 09:22:14 1996 Subject: 0103 Aurum Potabile Date: Thu, 01 Feb 1996 01:26:00 -0500 From: Russ House >Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 09:36:38 -0800 >From: joshua geller > > >Alchemy forum writes: > > Charlie Richards writes > > > >Another way that I developed, is to take water, sulpheric acid, urea, > > >thiourea, ferric oxide and gold. This is safe enough to do in the palm > > >of your hand...the gold will dance like a fizzie until disolved. The > > >ph changes as the gold is disolved. If you have the ingreadents > > >proper...you can drink it. It does taste like crap, but it is liquid > > >gold. > > > This is absolute nonsense. Pure fantasy. The alchemists discovered that > > only aqua regia (a mixture of nitric and hydrochloric acids) will > > dissolve gold. > >well, technically, gold will dissolve in mercury. it is not (of >course) chemically changed by this and is easily recovered (by as >simple a method as sieving through chamois or by more dangerous >methods as heating the mix to drive away the mercury). some of the >literature seems to imply that "our mercury" or some other thing >referred to as mercury is mercury treated in some fashion in with >antimony. > > > To make such a statement as the above, is either to play silly games or is > > the result of a complete misunderstanding of the properties of substances in > > alchemy. Can anyone believe that you have actually done any practical > > alchemical work? > >I am very glad that someone else besides me has seen this. > >josh > I have seen gold leaf of 23K dissolve (although slowly) in something other than aqua regia. I have used heated aqua regia on .9999 pure gold and on gold nuggets, and suggest that it be done on a fume hood or outdoors. The fumes are horrible, and dangerous. I remember holding a filter paper over the fumes for a brief time. After removing it from the fumes it was brittle and disintegrated at the least touch. This is mentioned just in case some one looks into working with metallic gold and is unaware of how dangerous this acid can be. But, back to the 'non traditional' menstruum. It was a rectified distillate of lead acetate. Ripley (in the Bosom Book, on Adam's web site), Hollandus, Edward Kelly, Becker, and many other alchemists mention this rather clearly in the literature. It was made from commercial red lead oxide that had been converted in part to lead acetate and subacetate which was then recrystallized half a dozen or more times to purify it. This was dry distilled, as previously described in posts by Dan Hill and Michael Prescott. The 'golden water' that came over was rectified a number of times. I have done this process quite a few times, and have kept samples from the different processes, done with slightly different sources materials or manipulated a bit differently. One specific batch of the rectified distillate was able to dissolve 23K gold leaf at room temperature over a period of 4-6 weeks. After several days, examination of the gold in the water-clear liquid revealed tiny green or blue spots which are an effect of light passing through gold of only a few atoms of thickness. Over time, the number of holes increased, and the blue or green was to be seen at the edge of the hole. After 6 weeks or more, pieces of colorless 'skin' were observed in the liquid. These were gold leaf with no color. It makes sense that a menstruum will more readily extract the metallic 'sulphurs' than it will dissolve the 'salts'. It is my assumption (rather than observation) that the salts were attacked, although more slowly. This never progressed to the point that all of the gold became invisible, although the greater part of it did. Other batches of similar product, including ones more rectified, and ones that were circulated, had no effect on gold leaf that I could observe. I have met other experimenters who say that the volatile spirit of Saturn (the lead acetate distillate) has no effect on metallic gold. I can say that the majority of the product I have made has no effect on metallic gold, but that I have found it to work in one case that I have tested to date. The solvent evaporates quickly from the skin, is flammable in the extreme, contains acetaldehyde, acetone, traces of acetic acid and similar products. It is, in other words, a mixture. It is not corrosive (like aqua regia, for example). Regarding Charlie's comments about his process "Another way that I developed, is to take water, sulpheric acid, urea, thiourea, ferric oxide and gold." This is an interesting idea. Should it work? Not according to chemistry books, of course. What I did find of interest is the urea. In some of the old alchemical texts, the preparation of solvents for gold using urine as the prima materia are numerous. I have not worked along those lines, but there is a strong traditional background that suggests that Charlie's ideas are work a second look. There are some other processes for dissolving gold, including some iodine, potassium iodide solutions that I have experimented with just in passing. I cannot say that there is any thing to these processes, or that there is not. In regards to a question on what is in the potabile gold of Hans N... I was with Hans when he was taught the process that I assume he used. It involves creating a chloride of gold, dissolving it and digesting it in the lead spirit that I mentioned earlier, followed by a _very_ important series of washes in various solvents to remove all traces of acid. This is difficult, risks burning the metallic oils of gold, but is absolutely necessary to have any assurance of removing the metallic salts. There must be no acidity in the product before further preparation. Futher washes of the concentrated oil in absolute alcohol, foolwed by washing/concentration in acetone, and then in ether are important to make it possible for the metallic sulphurs to migrate into the increasingly rarified solvents without the metallic salts (toxic) following along. The resulting oil is ruby red and behaves like an oil. It is dissolved in rectified spirit of wine. It has been said that refining of metals 'kills' them, and drives out their life. I think that this is _relatively_ true. Nothing is dead. Something of a confirmation for this idea came when I used placer gold nuggets, as the basic material, and separated it from most of the silver and other metals using aqua regia and other means known to chemists and assayers and found in the normal books. The yield of oil from 1 oz of gold nuggets astounded me. I had, in my first experiments, used a .9999 pure Candadian Maple leaf coin. ((Not an ounce one, mind you)). The yield was an estimated 5-6 times higher using the ore vs the coin, looking at the weight of the final yield compared to the weight of the gold used. This is a fun, if expensive process, and demands a lot of time. Lots of it. It has some risks for folks who forget a thing or two, or rush or work beyond the time that their body and mind need rest. ((Who? Me?)) The material that Hans prepared was, I assume, colorless. It was, I suggest, a 4C, 5C or 6C homeopathic dilution of the mother tincture of oil of gold. Just one drop of oil to 100, or even 1000 drops of alcohol gives a really strong color. It is said to be allopathically active even in picomolar (or some 50 dollar word like that) dosages. We were taught the process of dilutions to avoid risk of toxicity. All things considered, it is interesting. It may be dangerous, or maybe a blessing. I cannot say. I do not know if it is even an aurum potabile. It will be toxic if prepared badly, since gold chloride or other metallic compounds can manage to be dissolved in the acids and remain in the final product. Don't look for the fountain of youth and end up floating face down in it. I am certain that a good spagyrist could prepare something much safer, with effects that are very beneficial, and which may exceed the preparation I have just described. Now if I could just get suficient salts to imbibe with all of this red sulphur... Regards, Russ House ==================================== Courses in Alchemy * Qabala * Esoteric Studies The Philosophers of Nature on the web: http://www.mcs.net/~alchemy/ email: alchemy@mcs.com "Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana" - Groucho Marx Thu Feb 01 09:24:19 1996 Subject: 0104 Aurum Potabile Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 00:37:24 -0800 From: William A. Stehl >Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 09:36:38 -0800 >From: joshua geller > > >Alchemy forum writes: > > Charlie Richards writes > > > >Another way that I developed, is to take water, sulpheric acid, urea, > > >thiourea, ferric oxide and gold. This is safe enough to do in the palm > > >of your hand...the gold will dance like a fizzie until disolved. The > > >ph changes as the gold is disolved. If you have the ingreadents > > >proper...you can drink it. It does taste like crap, but it is liquid > > >gold. > > > This is absolute nonsense. Pure fantasy. The alchemists discovered that > > only aqua regia (a mixture of nitric and hydrochloric acids) will > > dissolve gold. > >well, technically, gold will dissolve in mercury. it is not (of >course) chemically changed by this and is easily recovered (by as >simple a method as sieving through chamois or by more dangerous >methods as heating the mix to drive away the mercury). some of the >literature seems to imply that "our mercury" or some other thing >referred to as mercury is mercury treated in some fashion in with >antimony. > > > To make such a statement as the above, is either to play silly games or is > > the result of a complete misunderstanding of the properties of substances in > > alchemy. Can anyone believe that you have actually done any practical > > alchemical work? > >I am very glad that someone else besides me has seen this. > >josh a) Gold is amalgamated by mercury, partially dissolved, partially alloyed b) Gold is dissolved by thiourea, ferric oxide, etc. - a significant percentage of the world's gold production is obtained in this matter, not recommended in the palm of the hand, however c) Gold is indeed dissolved by aqua regia, also by "aqua nasty" in which a portion to the HCl is replaced by HF - this process produces complex halide salts of gold d) Gold is dissolved by cyanide, eight million ounces worth in Nevada alone this year e) Gold is dissolved by bromine leaching systems, not economical, but works in some cases f) there are several other well documented methods of dissolving gold, some of which could produce a "potabile " version of one or more gold salts if used in very low concentrations g) It is theorized that gold can be dissolved by the combination of acid and enzymes in the stomach, but only as micro-fine particles h) and then there is the whole "mono-atomic" non-metallic gold debate surrounding David Hudson, which appears to be gaining momentum these are easily confirmed by experiment or study, see "The Metallurgy of Gold" by Hoke etc. Bill "great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds" A. Einstein Thu Feb 01 10:00:35 1996 Subject: 0105 Aurum potabile Date: Tue, 30 Jan 96 17:51 NZDT From: zirdo@ramhb.co.nz (Pat Zalewski) >Date: Sun, 28 Jan 96 17:48 PST >From: clpress@yelmtel.com (John Hill) > > >Does anyone know a reference that describes the method of making 'Aurum >Potible'? Or does anyone have a recipe? > > >Yes there are quite a few of them around. One version is that you actually mix gold filings into the experiment and the other method is that you extract it from primea materia (making sure it has gold in it in the first place). John French's `Art of Distillation has some information worth looking up. The real trick is the use of the elixir when you have finished. I would not take it willy nilly, as in the past some have done that and ended up with more problems than they needed. In spite of what a lot of people think potable gold is not a cure all. I saw a chinese version once in Hong Kong, back in the 60's and the man was trying to be cured of a type of veneral disease that eventually proved fatal to him. His friend also took it and removed a nasty parasite that had plagued him when in Nam. When he returned back to the states he was tested again and found cured and sent back to nam. He had taken the potable gold for about a week. The method of making it was never made clear to me but the man assured me he extracted the gold from both soil and plants. God knows what type of soil or plant he used as I could not understand a word of what he was getting at. The only gold I use these days for patients is placing a gold object in distilled water and leaving it in the sun for an our or more. I have had some good results with this for various aliments both mental and physical. Pat zalewski Thu Feb 01 11:28:44 1996 Subject: 0106 Aurum potabile With all the interesting contributions recently on the 'Aurum potabile' I wonder if anyone has done any experiments with colloidal gold. Some years ago someone gave me a small ampule of gold chloride and I was able to make some gold mirrors by precipitating the gold from solutions using dilute glucose. I can't now exactly remember the exact methodology. Can anyone refesh my memory on this? Can anyone point to any alchemical texts which seem to refer to the deposition of gold mirrors? Colloidal gold can be made to exhibit a variety of colours. Has anyone done any experiments exploiting these colour changes? Adam McLean Thu Feb 01 12:09:32 1996 Subject: 0107 FRENCH texte alch Date: Thu, 01 Feb 1996 12:56:34 +0100 From: Christian Vanden Berghen Bonjour Thierry, Heureux de rencontrer un francophone ! Malheureusement, je n'ai jamais trouve ce que tu cherches. Et si tu le trouves, je suis amateur. Par contre, je m'occupe d'une petite association qui s'interesse a la Tradition et plus specialement a l'Alchimie. Nous avons quelques livres dont je me propose de publier la liste un de ces jours. Bien a toi Christian At 18:24 31/01/1996 GMT+0100, you wrote: >From: ducreux thierry >Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 12:51:51 +0100 > >Existe t il un serveur sur lequel figure des textes alchimiques. >Je pense precisement ` : > - DUJOLS > - BASILE VALENTIN >Merci, >Thierry. > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christian VANDEN BERGHEN Rota Solis asbl Brussels/Belgium christian.vanden.berghen@netropolis.be ChristianVandenBerghen@msn.com >>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Thu Feb 01 17:34:34 1996 Subject: 0108 re-creation Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 07:32:22 -0500 From: kcrist rock building 101 anybody? will charlie teach us? kirk -------- Thu Feb 01 17:35:24 1996 Subject: 0109 Rosarium philosophorum Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 07:21:41 -0800 (PST) From: "Charla J. Williams" A friend works with a different order of elements for 12 different arts, including alchemy, astrology, and tarot. He said he read about this in an old German Rosicrucian Book. Does this sound familiar to anyone? Thank you, Charla Thu Feb 01 17:36:23 1996 Subject: 0110 Taschen Alchemy Book Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 09:22:47 -0600 From: George Randall Leake III ***there's some obvious mis-spellings in this bibliographic citation. Mark, can you re-check this? If alchemy is mis-spelled, how can we trust that ISBN # for instance? >Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 20:23:41 +0000 >From: Mark Bennett >Alechemy & Mysticism- Hermetic Museum >Alexandder Roob >ISBN 3-8228-8653-X >704pp >c 700 ills >Fall 96 > >The quality of Taschen is very high and the colour reproduction in just >there catalogue is supurb. They will also be doing a postcard book at the >same time. > >Taschen UK (0171) 437 4350 >Taschen America (212) 683 3377 > >Mark Bennett >Editor/Publisher - Black Ice Magazine >Executive Producer - Perspectives > > > > Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.--Frank Zappa -G.Leake, 512-471-9117 taliesin@mail.utexas.edu "To be ignorant of what occurred before you were born is to remain always a child." -Cicero "Oh age! oh letters! It is a joy to be alive!...Woe to you, barbarians!" -Ulrich von Hutten, 1518, Poet Laureate of the German Empire Thu Feb 01 17:37:03 1996 Subject: 0111 Rosicrucians? Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 09:26:46 -0600 From: George Randall Leake III >From: John E. Myers> myersj@gactr.uga.edu >Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 9:11:50 EST5EDT >I consider the original Rosicrucians to have been Alchemists. ***I don't mean to raise hell, but maybe it would be better for all of us if you could find some way to qualify such statements, such as... actual evidence? And then from there perhaps we could discuss it? Then get into what they have to do with alchemy? -G.Leake, 512-471-9117 taliesin@mail.utexas.edu "To be ignorant of what occurred before you were born is to remain always a child." -Cicero "Oh age! oh letters! It is a joy to be alive!...Woe to you, barbarians!" -Ulrich von Hutten, 1518, Poet Laureate of the German Empire Thu Feb 01 17:38:13 1996 Subject: 0112 Locating the prima materia (3) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 11:59:28 -0500 From: Flamel This post is a continuation of one of the central ideas in alchemy, that of the nature of the prima materia. It is somewhat lengthy, and I realize, a burden on the reader, for which I apologize. It requires a great deal of supportive explanation to unpack the symbolism condensed in alchemical ideas and images in order to make their meanings available for our modern understanding. I want to thank the many individuals who responded to my previous posts, both privately and on the forum, and who have added their own thoughts and reflections to this rich body of material. As in the past, I welcome your additions, corrections, and further reflections. Maury Jan 31, 1996 * On January 19, 1996, Patrick J. Smith wrote when elaborating Fulcanelli's vision of the prima materia: >>It's my understanding that the cross hatched pattern [first matter=ankh=sign of the cross=universal life hidden in matter] implies a Hermetically Sealed Vessel, symbolically equivalent to Fixation of the Mercury (i.e., the formation of the First Stone), and often depicted by the killing of a snake or serpent.<< These remarks can be supported by some further speculations on the nature of the prima materia by the alchemists of the Middle Ages. In a separate post I'll try to address the origins of the idea of the connection between the "cross hatched pattern" and the "Vessel," a basic image in the theoria of alchemy. The idea of the prima materia as a "serpent" is a very important concept in alchemy. This very interesting idea has its roots in antiquity. One example in alchemy, as cited above, is when the snake personifies the "mercurial serpent." This is also an ancient Gnostic image for the Nous - the mind - where the spirit was represented as a serpent, the Agathodaimon, the good daimon, or it was referred to as the serpent of the Nous. This serpent does _not_ represent "reason" or anything like it, rather it represents a peculiar autonomous mind which can possess one completely, a spirit of revelation which gives us "intuitions" [_Einfalle_]. Paracelsus suggested this when he says that the function of this mind is to throw out "intuitions." It is a concealed mind, and for this reason, it is symbolized by the serpent, a reptile which conceals itself. Such a formulation suggests an autonomous being, something quite outside ourselves - the mind which throws out these "intuitions" cannot be identified with man, it is no human function, but something inhuman, totally indifferent to man, as objective as a real snake. After long hours of observation and meditation, many alchemists discovered that all the "intuitions" which came to them from this region were, in some strange way, inhuman; their character was not of a human nature. This contradicts our cherished ideas of mind and reason. We are largely convinced that our psychology is a purely personal matter, but, according to the imagery of alchemy, psychology is _not_ only that which we know about ourselves, it goes far beyond this into the unconscious. Apparently we cannot dispose of the unconscious, it , rather disposes of us; and it is from this region that these "intuitions" come. The natural philosophers were more introspective than we are, and they worked at the art of introspection, which, by in large, we cannot say for ourselves, and therefore they knew that the mind, from which these ideas come, is something of a totally different nature to our human reason, and the best description they could find for it was a snake-like being - a serpent, or a monster, or a winged dragon - it is really indescribable, something beyond human experience. Throughout much of the alchemical literature, esp. in Arabic alchemy, we find images of serpents and dragons in every kind of form. It is from the total strangeness of the psychical being that the really decisive "intuitions" come. Indeed, from the Gnostics, the serpent has been the symbol for the brain and its appendages, i.e., the brain's lower centers, and the spinal cord, partly on account of its shape, but also for introspective reasons. One has an inner feeling that the way the snake moves, and the character of its body, is like the psychical mind. The ancient saurians actually had a swelling in the lumbar vertebrae which was larger than the "brain," and if they had a brain at all it must have been located in the lumbar region. This shows us how important the spinal cord is, it is a pure system of reflexes, reaching up to the highest and most complicated instincts. The reflexes function through the collaboration of the spinal cord and the basal ganglia. All this was symbolized by the serpent, and this gives us a further hint as to the source of the "intuitions." It demonstrates that they come from a region which lies in the subcortical centers; that is, from the instinctive and reflexive psyche. This reaches into the sympathetic nervous system, of which the chief part is the two ganglionated cords which lie on each side of the spine, a sort of rope ladder system which extends into the innermost organs of the body. The sympathetic system has a peculiar connection with the cerebro-spinal system, it works with it but it is older, in that it is to be found in the lowest invertebrate animals which have no backbone and no cerebro-spinal nervous system. The "sympathetic" system rules the vegetative functions of the body, and also, to a great extent, the circulation of the blood, and is connected with the emotions. The connection with the cerebro-spinal nervous system gives a highly unusual physiological foundation to the unconscious. One could say, in a certain sense, that the unconscious was the invisible, psychical part of the tangible and visible nervous system, just as one might say consciousness was the invisible prt of the brain. This does not mean that the whole psychical phenomenon is a secretion of the brain or of the basal ganglia, or anything of that kind; the whole thing is far more complicated, and lies, through its very nature, on the borders of human understanding. Living matter is a mystery which is beyond our understanding, if only for the reason that we ourselves consist of living matter. We cannot climb above our own heads, a fact that should be a warning to all those who try to explain the nature of any transcendent reality. The fact that the mysterious being represented by the serpent is so much connected with the material body, was the reason why the definitions or symbolic formulations for the prima materia were usually purely material, and very often in the most unpleasant sense of the word. As is well known, alchemists were often suspected of working with every kind of unappetizing material, and they did actually work with excrement. Sometimes a parallel was drawn between the prima materia and excrement, or even that it was to be found in human faeces, or that it originated in the same way, or could be found in old privies. In this respect, therefore, it is the cheapest thing, which is cast out and rejected, and can be found at every street corner. Petrus of Zalento says the prima materia is a white dove, but that its origin is of the basest, and that it can be found in stables and in kitchen waste, but when it is united with the spirit, it becomes "pulcherrima matrona," the most beautiful lady. This is a typical description, on the one side it is the lowest, most objectionable and disgusting thing, on the other, the most beautiful and exalted - and it is often portrayed as a bringing together of the opposites. Whenever you find symbolism in which the opposites are brought together, you may be sure that there is a so-called metaphysical idea behind which can only be expressed by a paradox, or through a paradoxical formulation, and such an antimony does not belong to pure reason but comes from the Nous - its a kind of revelation which has been dropped in, or thrown, by the unconscious. We can understand then why the prima materia is spoken of as a great and marvelous mystery. This mystery is somehow connected with nature or lies in nature, and man's reason is absolutely helpless when confronted with this mystery, he is unable to deal with it alone. It is essential therefore that nature herself should help him, apart from God, whose help is also essential. Finally, here is an unusual example of a thoroughly philosophical formulation from an old alchemical treatise, the so-called "Treatise of Aristotle," which was probably originally Arabic, and goes back to Alexandrian ideas. The tract is written as a letter from Aristotle to Alexander, his student. Aristotle, of course, is a pseudonym used to give added weight to the text. The treatise says: "The serpent... as a quasi hypostasized matter forms itself, through illusion, as immersed in the water." This is a difficult sentence to understand. It means: the serpent is the hypostatic, underlying materia (the essence of matter), which sinks into the water, or is as it were in the water, and, through illusion, it deceives the senses. The sentence appears to indicate that this serpent was enclosed in fluid matter, that is, in the water or the solution which the alchemists had in their flasks or retorts. In an earlier discussion on *meditatio* on this forum, I described how the alchemists naturally stared with utmost curiosity at their flasks and cooking vessels and saw the strangest things in them. They describe seeing numbers of snakes or other reptiles, some saw human figures, others say that they saw the creation of the world, the dry being separated from the waters, the clouds rising from the sea, and the mountains rearing its head above the primeval waters. All these images were projections of inner processes which the alchemists saw in their retorts, and it is to this that pseudo-Aristotle refers. In the "Liber Platonis Quartorum" an alchemist writes that it is characteristic of the prima materia "to seek the higher and strive to separate itself from the lower." Evidently it has in itself the power of ascending, and apparently one need only put it in a retort in order to give it back its natural trend. It is imprisoned in matter and, if freed, it ascends at once. But, the author adds: "one must be careful to protect oneself from its evil intention," for this substance was also known to be dangerous and evil. It was said to contain demons and other dangerous forces, which, in an invisible way, could have a poisonous effect [cf. one of the names of the prima materia was "Adam's earth," which Maier tells us that Adam carried this earth away with him from Paradise. An old legend says that Adam, when driven out of Paradise, carried some of its soil away with him. This earth was said to be red, and "terra rubra," red earth, is also a name for the prima materia. The idea is that primeval man possessed a substance, a sort of earth, out of which Paradise could grow, and Adam carries the secret of this earth in himself. Of course, the serpent belongs to Paradise and many alchemists liked to play with this idea]. In the same tract, the "Liber Platonis Quartorum" says: "The thing from which all things come, is the invisible and immovable God." This thing, the first thing from which everything originated, is the prima materia, and in a way it is the visibility and changeableness of a God who is in himself invisible and unchangeable. The idea of an immovable God goes back to the real Aristotle. This treatise probably reaches back through the Ssabians, a philosophic school which flourished in Bagdad until the eleventh century, to the ideas of the old Alexandrian philosophers. I find these ideas on the nature of the alchemical prima materia, organized around the image of the serpent, so wonderfully rich when fleshed out. They lend a deeper meaning to our humanity, a meaning that often gets lost in today's technological world. Thu Feb 01 17:42:14 1996 Subject: 0113 Alchemy resources in Germany? From: "Matthias Zeiner" Date: Thu, 1 Feb 96 17:05:07 +0700 Being located in Germany I have problems in getting alchemical literature. Even classical works like those from Maier, Khunrath, Sendivog, Valentine and others, many of which were originally published in Germany, are not available by publishers or bookstores here. So I have to purchase English or French editions from abroad. Are there any possibilities to get German editions for a reasonable price? Any information is greatly appreciated. Matthias Zeiner Thu Feb 01 18:31:21 1996 Subject: 0114 Booklet on alchemy The Thomas Harriot Seminar publishes a series of papers (19 to date). One may be of interest to some members of the forum. No. 10. Lyndy Abraham. Harriot's Gift to Arthur Dee: Literary Images from an Alchemical Manuscript. The Seminar Papers are available for £3.00 including postage - cheques made out to Professor G.R. Batho. [People outside the UK should perhaps write first to find the cost to foreign postage and exchange rate.] Professor G.R. Batho, School of Education - Universtity of Durham, Leazes Road, Durham, DH1 1TA U.K. Adam McLean Thu Feb 01 20:57:22 1996 Subject: 0115 Questions for YOU ... Date: Thu, 1 Feb 96 17:36:41 PST From: A.J.Le Sage Could it be true that the illigitimate child of Alchemy was the Church of Rome. If the rose is a symbol of spirit and the cross a symbol of matter then is the rose on the cross is spirit joined with matter, the physical goal of the Alchemest. ---------------Original Message--------------- Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 16:15:01 -0500 (EST) From: Claude Gagnon On Mon, 29 Jan 1996, Alchemy forum wrote: > Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 09:15:04 -0600 > From: taliesin@mail.utexas.edu (George Randall Leake III) > > >Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 10:06:00 -0700 (MST) > >From: Tom Hennessy > > > >The whole thing with alchemy and the Bible is that they don't seem to > >come together except by spirituality. > >I cannot find any mention of 'alchemy'.. in the Bible. > >He was a bit interested in 'transmutation'.. though. :) > *** > *Might some of his miracles like multiplying bread be considered in the > realm of alchemy? > > *But as you suggest, the metaphor of transmutation is not too far off from > Christian redemption (except one must accept Jesus specifically, and/or go > to his church, get baptized, depending on yr sect). > > *One wonders whether the spiritual context of alchemy and Christianity > might have had some common root or shared heritage in the ancient world? > > -G.Leake, 512-471-9117 taliesin@mail.utexas.edu Thu Feb 01 20:58:47 1996 Subject: 0116 Rosicrucians? Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 10:20:38 -0800 From: Michael D. Miller > Tom wrote > > >I have in my possession a Rosy Manual .. and I wish to know > >.. WHAT .. feelings anyone has on the subject of 'discussing' its > >contents in the forum? > > > Do you ask this because the manual is supposedly secret > or because it is not directly relevant to alchemy? > > If the latter, it should probably not be discussed on this forum. > > There is a general occult forum, entitle ARCANA. > send the message subscribe ARCANA (your name) on the second line to > > > I am interested in talking about it, > but that would seem the most appropriate arena for doing so. I agree that this is not the forum for discussing Rosicrucianism unless it is related to alchemy as there were/are rosicrucians who are also alchemist. I have been a Rosicrucian for many years and worked with the Imperators of the Rosicrucian AMORC and also the more traditional Rosicrucian Order which is called the Order of the Golden Rose. So I would be interested in discussions on this topic, but I agree this is not the forum for it. When cryptography is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl." _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ () () () () () () () () () /[]\ /[]\ /[]\ /[]\ /[]\ /[]\ /[]\ /[]\ /[]\ .-##..___.##--..__##.---..##_..---##___..-##..___.##--..__##.---..##_. .-|//___..|//.___.|//-.___|//--.__|//---._|//.---.|//..---|//_..--|//_ .---.___.---.___.---.___.---.___.---.___.---.___.---.___.---.___.---._ .---.__.---.__.---.__.---.__.---.__.---.__.---.__.---.__.---.__.---.__ .--.__.--.__.--.__.--.__.--.__.--.__.--.__.-- michael.miller@ebay.sun.com SUN MICROsystems--MIL12-04--2550 GARCIA AVE--MOUNTAIN VIEW CA 94043-1100 Even a fool is thought wise if he is silent, And Discerning if he holds his tongue. -- Proverbs 17:28 Thu Feb 01 20:57:43 1996 Subject: 0117 Questions for YOU ... Date: Thu, 1 Feb 96 12:07 PST From: Diane Munoz In regards to the conversations on the Bible and Alchemy/Jesus' miracles etc. Has anyone read "Hermes Unveiled" and/or "The Language of the Gods" by Roy Norvill? They are really fascinating in that they address the ancient myths, Bible included, fairy tales etc and view them from a perspective of Hermetic code. I think Mr. Norvill has come up with some ingenius understandings of the codes used in the Bible to explain the matter of enlightenment, transmutation, and the alchemical process of changing the body to have access and understanding of the finer realms. Any comments? Diane Thu Feb 01 21:04:12 1996 Subject: 0119 re-creation Date: Thu, 1 Feb 96 12:49 PST From: Diane Munoz Charlie, I agree with you in principle on the quote re: the rock. That is the basis of alchemy, I believe. After all, isn't alchemy just starting from the most obvious (mass) and undoing and undoing until you get to the foundation? The "Rock" statement is just the reverse idea and actually more appropriate if you want to develop the art of creation. That is because everything has to come FROM nothing. The intelligence that came from the nothing to form the rock is what all alchemists strive to understand and become. diane Thu Feb 01 21:05:44 1996 Subject: 0118 re-creation Date: Thu, 1 Feb 96 12:52 PST From: Diane Munoz Also, I would like to point out that chaos only appears to be chaos because you're too close to the subject. There is always a perspective that shows the order in the chaos when you detach and move far enough away from it to view the whole picture. Chaos is an indication that you're only viewing a PART of the picture! And Nature is not IMPURE, it is in the throes of change, ie evolution. It's viewed as corrupted only by those (perhaps?) that don't want change and are afraid of evolution. Perfection is a limitation, you know? One must continue to expand so that it can attain that perspective to transmute the vision of chaos into order! :) Diane Thu Feb 01 23:02:34 1996 Subject: 0120 Prima Materia Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 08:16:24 +1100 From: Petra Gottlieb Maury Flamel, are you still out there? Did you receive my last post?:- Dear Maury Flamel, I am holding on to your silver thread and follow the beautiful idea you have stun. Oh how revealing! Let's stop here for a moment and observe: the Stone is melted into its mercury, it is reduced to its original condition. We are dealing with the prima materia, which simultaneously is the macrocosmic realm of the souls. Since the soul carries the spirit within, we can speak of the Philosopher's Egg (the yellow in the white), "the seed of the world that contains God's seed" as you said, yet still in the chaotic state. How do we go from here? How can we get this Egg hatched? What outside influence do we require, or does it happen from within? Let's continue to spin our web so that when the sun shines on it, it produces all the colours in the spectrum. Please continue your everlasting story...and tell me if I am on the wrong track. With great expectation, --- Petra Christiane Gottlieb >>OHNE LIEBE KEINE KUNST!<< (Paracelsus) WITHOUT LOVE THERE IS NO ART! Thu Feb 01 23:02:46 1996 Subject: 0121 looking for poem Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 18:25:55 -0400 (AST) From: Jeff Burkard Phys Ed Anyone know the author, title, or web location where I could find the following poem: (partial) As I walk beside a joy A joy of mine I cannot take And someday by some Alchemy I will be transposed Jeff Burkard Director of Campus Recreation \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_\_ \_ \_ \_\_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_\_ \_ \_ \_ \_\_ \_ \_ \_\_\_ \_ \_ \_ \_\_ University of New Brunswick Fredericton, NB CANADA Thu Feb 01 23:03:16 1996 Subject: 0122 FRENCH texte alch Date: 01 Feb 96 17:20:50 EST From: Jean Dauge Je vais vous donner l' adresse de ma page qui est bien modeste pour l' instant. : http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/JDauge/rennes.htm Choisiez ensuite la rubrique Alchimie. Sont presents quelques textes curieux. Mais il n y a pas Dujol ni Basile Valentin. Dujol: voir explications du Mutus liber , dans la collection Bibliothequa Hermetiqua . Amicalement J.Dauge. Fri Feb 02 09:15:31 1996 Subject: 0123 Alchemy resources in Germany? Date: Thu, 01 Feb 1996 16:09:08 -1000 From: Anastasy Tynan Matthias Zeiner: >Being located in Germany I have problems in getting alchemical literature. A valuable resource is the defunct periodical "Quinta Essentia," which can be found in used book stores. (1976-1980's) formerly published by: Paracelsus Research Society Postfach 8 CH 6414 Oberarth/Schweiz Redaktion: Johanna Arnold Dobereinerstr. 23a D 8000 Munchen 60 Fri Feb 02 09:15:43 1996 Subject: 0124 Aurum potabile Date: Thu, 01 Feb 1996 22:03:19 -0500 (EST) From: hyson@BIX.com I have joined this Alchemy list to search information on the "White Powder of Gold" of Dave Hudson. I am new to this. What can you tell me about this. Is it similar or related to the "potible gold"? Thanks Michael T. Hyson Fri Feb 02 09:31:18 1996 Subject: 0125 Aurum potabile (Hudson again?) Michael T. Hyson (hyson@bix.com) wrote: >I have joined this Alchemy list to search information on the >"White Powder of Gold" of Dave Hudson. >I am new to this. What can you tell me about this. The forum discussed questions arising from Dave Hudson at considerable length during the last few months of 1995. There must have been about 100 posts. Most of the subscribers probably believe we exhausted the subject then, and would not want just to repeat airing all the different views again. Of course, if new information comes to light about Hudson, no doubt someone will raise it on the forum, but the forum members certainly analysed the information available then in considerable detail. When I have time I will archive the forum discussions on Hudson and place them onto the Alchemy Web site. Check this out in a few weeks time. There is an earlier thread of discussions of Hudson already on the Web site. http://www/colloquium.co.uk/alchemy/ Adam McLean P.S. Perhaps one of the forum members with an especial interest in Hudson, might care to send some information direct to Michael Hyson, rather than posting it through the forum. Fri Feb 02 10:46:40 1996 Subject: 0126 Missing posts on the forum Since I began sequentially numbering the posts to the forum on the 25th January 1996, it is now possible for people to see when mail has gone missing. I have received a number of letters about missing mail, and have asked my service provider Colloquium to look into it. There are a number of unposted messages stuck in the mail queue of the listserver, and the people at Colloquium don't entirely understand why these posts have become stuck, nor, as yet, just what to do to remedy the situation. It may well be that the listserver on Colloquium's system is just not able to handle the volume of mail originated by the forum, or it may be connected with undeliverable mail returned from people whose servers are down, halting the posting out of mail from the listserver. Please be patient about lost mail. I have no control over this problem, but I will struggle to find a solution as soon as possible. With my best wishes, Adam McLean. Fri Feb 02 11:54:58 1996 Subject: 0127 Help with alchemy forum listserver! There are a number of problems with the alchemy forum listserver which mails out the posts for the alchemy forum. The people at Colloquium who provide this service don't seem to be able to solve the problems, so I must explore my options for the future. I wonder if it might be possible to relocate the listserver onto another site, preferably on the US academic network where mail transfer seems to be relatively fast, but I could consider other sites if they can cope with the traffic. If anyone on the forum has sufficient seniority in their academic institution to request the setting up of a listserver for the alchemy forum on their network, please get in touch. You wouldn't need to do anything after negotiating the initial setting up, as I can run everything from here. Such a listserver would have to be able to handle at least 20 messages a day posted out to 240+ people (i.e. 5000 E-mails a day). The total size of all messages can be as much as 60k a day, sent out to 240 people (i.e. 15 megs total of messages a day). Any suggestions appreciated! Adam McLean Fri Feb 02 12:12:30 1996 Subject: 0128 FRENCH texte alch Date: 02 Feb 96 05:45:19 EST From: Marcus Williamson Thierry, On peut trouver quelques textes de Valentin a : http://www.levity.com/alchemy Merci Marcus Fri Feb 02 16:12:33 1996 Subject: 0129 Aurum potabile Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 09:37:01 -0500 From: Gilbert Arnold >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Wed, 31 Jan 96 09:04:56 CST From: hill@ra.timeplex.com (dan hill ON RA SERVER) I tried some of the potable gold at Hanz N`s House a few years ago. It had almost a sparkling feel on my tongue. Does anyone know what is actually in the liquid and is it safe? All I had was a few drops under the tongue but I felt brave that day. LVX <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Preparations (to be taken orally without medical supervision ) involving a form of gold chloride, wine spirits along with what was called 'homeopathic dilution' although prepared with good intent, (and for sale), are, in my opinion, toxic. Fri Feb 02 17:23:19 1996 Subject: 0130 answers?, questions ... Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 08:55:28 -0800 From: joshua geller > kcrist wrote: > josh: > belief can only come from the known. the known is the past the last > moment or 40 centuries ago it is old it is conditioning it is the > cause of fear. we believe through fear. thought breeds fear. there > is the other way and that is the way of alchemy I am confused. how does this relate to the statement "belief is error"? josh Sat Feb 03 16:32:43 1996 Subject: 0131 Aurum potabile - Hudson again Date: Fri, 2 Feb 96 10:21 PST From: Diane Munoz Michael Hyson wrote: > >I have joined this Alchemy list to search information on the >"White Powder of Gold" of Dave Hudson. >I am new to this. What can you tell me about this. > >Is it similar or related to the "potible gold"? > >Thanks >Michael T. Hyson Michael, I have seen Mr. Hudson speak a couple of times, and even interviewed him. He has patented a process to produce the white powder and transform it to different monoatomic states of the golds and silver. Some people have started taking it as well with quite fantastic results (like increased psychic awareness and the healing of the body back to it's natural healthy state). In fact, I think this forum has discussed it a couple of times. Do a search for "White Powder" or "David Hudson" and you'll get the information. Of these talks he has given, there are audio and video tapes,too. His intent was not to find this kind of thing! He was looking for something else and it's what he hit upon! His presentation was very comprehensive, but I don't think he's speaking anymore. Diane Sat Feb 03 16:33:51 1996 Subject: 0132 GERMAN: German alchemical Books Date: 02 Feb 96 16:35:01 EST From: Beat Krummenacher Hallo Matthias, diese Meldung ist in erster Linie an Dich adressiert. Da Du in Deutschland bist und deutsche Literatur suchst, verfasse ich diese Mitteilung auch in Deutsch. Alchemistische deutsche Neudrucke gibt es eine ganze Palette. Allerdings handelt es sich meist um bekanntere Werke. Die Autoren, die Du genannt hast, sind fur die praktische Arbeit sehr interessant, aber kaum neu aufgelegt worden. Deren Schriften kannst Du dennoch bekommen, indem Du die Moglichkeit der Fernleihe in einer grosseren Bibliothek benutzt. Auf diese Weise habe ich selber hunderte alchemistischer Traktate gesammelt. Nachteil: Die Suche eines Werkes kann lange Zeit dauern. Aber ein Alchemist muss sowieso Geduld haben, weshalb das Suchen von Literatur eine gute Ubung fur diese Tugend ist. Freundlichen Grusse Lapis Sat Feb 03 16:35:04 1996 Subject: 0133 Aurum potabile From: Jon Marshall Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 10:51:36 -0800 warning:::!!! possibly silly post ahead. thinking about my last post on the subject, about the gold in aurem potabile being homeopathic, and then thinking of vibrational medicine in general (flower remedies, gem elixirs, radionic black box stuff etc.) and then thinking of Frater Albertus's comment about alchemy being 'about' raising vibrations, and van helmonts insitance that the archeus sickened because it was impregnated with the wrong idea (origin of the computer virus?) and that alchemical medicines were about reimposing the right idea (programme) in the archeus so that it would work well, and sickness would be cured. And then van helmont talks, if i remember correctly (and i'm not checking yet so as not to ruin an idea!) about the IMAGE in this context. And i wondered,.... One of my aquaintances *claims* to make medicines by impregnating his thoughts on liquids..... So i wondered again, if in fact the use of images in alchemy was not the exact opposite of that proposed by Jung (ie that the alchemist passively projects onto the retort, which stimulates interior phantasy)- that in fact the images of lions and dragons were images of potency that were to be deliberatly projected upon the working substance, in order to impregnate its "vibrations" with the right qualities.... jon Sat Feb 03 16:36:00 1996 Subject: 0134 Alchemy and Electricity Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 22:33:17 -0500 From: RawnClarK Dear Peter Van den Bossche, Your quote begins "Le fluide electrique", and should be distinguished from "electricity", as it is so much more. Common electricity is an example of the Electric Fluid, a manifestation of it. I recommend Franz Bardon's "Initiation Into Hermetics" (pp.19-20, 184-189, 194-203, 233-250) for a good outline of the Theory and Practical usage of the Electric *AND* Magnetic Fluids. My experience has been that different metals, when they are dynamically impregnated with said Fluids, express the Fluids in different ways. For instance 24k gold will express an accumulation of the Electrical Fluid much differently than will a 14k gold, or iron, or lead, etc. There are also affinities between the Fluids and specific metals; such as Electric with gold, and Magnetic with Silver. My experience with metals has only been of the practical-magical sort and not of the laboratory-Alchemy sort, so I hope there's someone out there with a laboratory perspective! I've applied the Fluids spagyrically to my own satisfaction, and am led to think that they would be of essential value in a laboratory metallic Work. Is there anyone Working in this way? Any comments? :) Rawn Clark Sat Feb 03 16:37:59 1996 Subject: 0135 Aurum potabile (Hudson again?) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 1996 00:58:07 -0500 (EST) From: hyson Recently, Adam McLean wrote: When I have time I will archive the forum discussions on Hudson and place them onto the Alchemy Web site. Check this out in a few weeks time. There is an earlier thread of discussions of Hudson already on the Web site. http://www/colloquium.co.uk/alchemy/ Adam McLean -------- Thank you for this information. I will wait till the archives are added to the web site. I would be glad to get email from members on the topic as well. Congratulations on a very informative list and website. There is something wonderful in the ancient art of alchemy being on the Internet. May this exchange help us all to the truth. Aloha Michael Hyson PS -- just for your information, my primary interest is dolphin research, space travel research, including new propulsion and drive methods as well as energy production through cold fusion and free energy. A related recent interest is in biological transmutation of elements (like Kervan's data on chickens and calcium and magnesium. All these topics seem relevant to some parts of alchemy, since transmutation under fairly ordinary conditions is one of the claims for alchemy. Are there hard data that can be examined, perhaps from modern alchemists that demonstrate transmutation or other effects generally denied by ordinary physics and chemistry? Thanks again! Sat Feb 03 16:38:55 1996 Subject: 0136 answers?, questions ... Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 23:01:44 -0800 From: joshua geller > subrider@ix.netcom.com (Charlie Richards) writes: > > I write: > > > kcrist@gate.net writes: > > > one can read paracelsus for instance and "believe" they understand > > > alchemy. but it is and will allways remain a belief. there isnt > > > much value in beliving in anything. the moment a belief becomes > > > part of a persons mental agenda doubt comes in. as taoism states: > > > those who speak do not know. > >belief is error. > How about where your thoughts are you are also...or, as you beleive so > it will be established unto you. possibly so, at least to some degree. or you may convince yourself that things are some way in which they are not, in such a fundamental sense that your functioning in the world is affected. > What you believe is what you will HAVE in your life. If you believe > YOU are something...sure enough you will become that. > Here is another you should memoreze..."If you argue for your > limitations long enough....sure enough they will be yours". > What we believe, is the foundation of US. Take away belief, and you > take away, hope, the future,and joy in your life. Your belief system > is the inner you, that chlothes the outer you in your own reality. > If fact your statement is a belief! A eronious one, but a belief. To > state that when you believe doubt creeps in is...well how should I put > this for delicate eyes...UNFOUNDED. Reality is just the opposite. To > not believe is to doube. Belief makes one have a will of steel and > that is the foundation of Alchemy. > If you do not BELIEVE that it is possible to make the Stone, if you do > not BELIEVE otheres have gone before us...then why bother. For that > matter why bother living at all...if you believe in NOTHING...THAT IS > WHAT YOU WILL HAVE, NOTHING. a rather long exegesis. I prefer the unadorned statement. josh Sat Feb 03 16:40:17 1996 Subject: 0137 Prima Materia Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 02:05:34 -0500 From: Flamel Dear Petra, I am sorry but I have not received the post you referred to in your Feb 2, 1996 post. I have posted another piece on the prima materia which I have not seen yet. It is loosely organized around the idea of the "serpent" or "snake" in alchemy and follows up a post of Patrick J. Smith on some ideas of the author using the pseudonym, Fulcanelli. You wrote: >>How do we go from here? How can we get this Egg hatched? What outside influence do we require, or does it happen from within?<< Such questions are very important and arise naturally from reading alchemy, they have certainly gripped me and I have spent the better part of my professional life as a psychologist trying to come to terms with them. Of course, each individual can reflect on the boiled down and distilled material I have posted to see what thoughts and images their own meditations may bring. This requires a certain amount of unprejudiced introspection that is generally difficult for the modern mentality, esp. handicapped by the postivistic premise that the truth is simple and can be expressed by one short sentence. Nevertheless, it is important to discuss such matters even without complete understanding in order that we all strive to be, as it says in the alchemical treatise, the "Liber Platonis quartorum," original 'investigators' into.... for lack of a better term, the objective psyche. This is a whole new world opening up, and this research is done in the solitude of one's own individual work on one's own psyche, or, on occasion, in individual mutual work on a one-on-one basis with another. This is the only way that research of this kind can take place. With apologies to sending this to the list. A private email address was not posted with the above message. Cordially, Maury Feb 3, 1996 Sat Feb 03 16:41:52 1996 Subject: 0138 answers?, questions ... Date: Sat, 3 Feb 96 20:09 NZDT From: Pat Zalewski >> >How about where your thoughts are you are also...or, as you beleive so >it will be established unto you. > >What you believe is what you will HAVE in your life. If you believe >YOU are something...sure enough you will become that. > >Here is another you should memoreze..."If you argue for your >limitations long enough....sure enough they will be yours". > >What we believe, is the foundation of US. Take away belief, and you >take away, hope, the future,and joy in your life. Your belief system >is the inner you, that chlothes the outer you in your own reality. > >If fact your statement is a belief! A eronious one, but a belief. To >state that when you believe doubt creeps in is...well how should I put >this for delicate eyes...UNFOUNDED. Reality is just the opposite. To >not believe is to doube. Belief makes one have a will of steel and >that is the foundation of Alchemy. > >If you do not BELIEVE that it is possible to make the Stone, if you do >not BELIEVE otheres have gone before us...then why bother. For that >matter why bother living at all...if you believe in NOTHING...THAT IS >WHAT YOU WILL HAVE, NOTHING. > >Charlie > > >Charlie Whatever you are selling I am not buying. Belief is a factor in some aspects of alchemy but I would hardly say it's a necessity. If you want to see belief in ratbag causes then look at history and today's news and none of them have come to pass.One of the best alchemist's I have ever known who constantly produced result after result was not a belief man. But alchemy is also a science, maybe of yesteryear, but a science nevertheless. And as a science it must be analysed and tested. If you want to fuse belief with that then all well and good but belief to me is only a component to take on the fates and win. The science (of the thing and in this case alchemy) is the methodology ot it. Pat zalewski Sat Feb 03 16:43:15 1996 Subject: 0139 re-creation Date: Sat, 03 Feb 1996 09:15:33 +0100 From: Christian Vanden Berghen Dear Diane, Please excuse my poor English, but I would thank you because I had never seen the Chaos in this way ! It is exactly that : a part of thr> Thu Fe I'm sure this little remark will help me in my work. I read a book called "La Theorie du Chaos" but I did not understand it till now. Thank you Christian At 08:55 02/02/1996 GMT+0100, you wrote: >Date: Thu, 1 Feb 96 12:52 PST >From: Diane Munoz > > >Also, I would like to point out that chaos only appears to be chaos because >you're too close to the subject. There is always a perspective that shows >the order in the chaos when you detach and move far enough away from it to >view the whole picture. Chaos is an indication that you're only viewing a >PART of the picture! > >And Nature is not IMPURE, it is in the throes of change, ie evolution. It's >viewed as corrupted only by those (perhaps?) that don't want change and are >afraid of evolution. Perfection is a limitation, you know? One must >continue to expand so that it can attain that perspective to transmute the >vision of chaos into order! :) > >Diane > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Christian VANDEN BERGHEN Rota Solis asbl Brussels/Belgium christian.vanden.berghen@netropolis.be ChristianVandenBerghen@msn.com >>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Sat Feb 03 16:44:26 1996 Subject: 0141 Druid Alchemy Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 11:07:35 +0000 From: susan terrain Gilbert Arnold wrote, >The french Alchemists Solazaref wrote about Druid and Shamanic Alchemy >in Europe. However, he wrote in French. I do not mind doing a bit of >translation if this is intended for practical lab work. How interesting Gilbert, I would be very glad of any snippets you would be so gracious as to translate, especially if it would also be of interest to others on the Forum. I do have pretty fair French however, and would be glad to know how to find the work in the original as well. Thanks also to George Leake for researching the etymology of fferyllt....I'll look more closely into it myself, and post again if I find out more. With peace to all, Susan Sat Feb 03 16:50:57 1996 Subject: 0140 Taschen Alchemy Book Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 16:00:40 +0000 From: Mark Bennett >Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 09:22:47 -0600 >From: George Randall Leake III > > >***there's some obvious mis-spellings in this bibliographic citation. Mark, >can you re-check this? If alchemy is mis-spelled, how can we trust that >ISBN # for instance? I doubled checked the ISBN and it's ok. As for Alchemy I was typing fast and I have awful spelling and dyslexia anyway. Taschen will also be doing a postcard set which is due out in the Spring. I have a spare couple of pages on the book which I could snail to Adam for use on the website (if interested). I don't have a colour scanner otherwise I'd e-mail it. >>Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 20:23:41 +0000 >>From: Mark Bennett >>Alechemy & Mysticism- Hermetic Museum >>Alexandder Roob >>ISBN 3-8228-8653-X >>704pp >>c 700 ills >>Fall 96 >> >>The quality of Taschen is very high and the colour reproduction in just >>there catalogue is supurb. They will also be doing a postcard book at the >>same time. >> >>Taschen UK (0171) 437 4350 >>Taschen America (212) 683 3377 Mark Bennett Editor/Publisher - Black Ice Magazine Executive Producer - Perspectives Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.--Frank Zappa Sat Feb 03 23:24:22 1996 Subject: 0142 Aurum Potabile Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 09:52:54 -0700 (MST) From: Tom Hennessy > b) Gold is dissolved by thiourea, ferric oxide, etc. - a significant Excuse me in my stupidity. Does this mean that gold is 'destroyed'.. by iron oxide or rust? If gold is so good as a medicinal.. ie: collodiol gold .. would it be 'destroyed'.. in our body by the 'excess iron'.. which was previously mentioned in an earlier post? If we considered for a second... that our bodies were just a 'test tube'.. full of water.. would rust {ferric oxide?} .. 'destroy'.. ALL.. the 'big'.. ones such as silver/gold/magnesium? Or.. is ferric oxide .. NOT.. rust. Again forgive my stupidity. Who loves ya. Tom http://www.nucleus.com/watchman Sat Feb 03 23:24:34 1996 Subject: 0143 Questions for YOU ... Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 09:07:03 -0800 From: joshua geller > Charlie Richards writes: > If you take the first path, then you don't need me or anyone else to > tell you anything, because you, by now should know. If you take the > later, splatering the feet of your teacher with mud will get you > thrown out. > I decide who I will teach, and no one else. I weigh each applicant and > I decide who I will take time with and who I will put back to grow. > So, you want to try this again? thank you, no. you are too arrogant even for me. always the best, josh Sat Feb 03 23:24:55 1996 Subject: 0144 why the stone? Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 11:49:37 -0700 From: leslie grollman has anyone gone the distance in a Sandplay process and in their review process, compared their journey in Sandplay to the sefirot of the tree of life? this question was inspired by my Sandplay process and Rawn's intelligent and poetic discourses on the paths of the Tree. leslie grollman leslieg@indirect.com Sat Feb 03 23:25:05 1996 Subject: 0145 Alchemy and Electricity From: Jon Marshall Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 08:10:58 -0800 On Feb 1, Van den Bossche Peter wrote > > > Do any of you know about alchemical interpretations of Electricity? > Although the classical books predate the electric age, I found an > interesting statement in Fulcanelli (Demeures), which I quote (in French; > accents omitted). It states the relationship between electricity, metals > and fire. there was an interesting and possibly relevant article by dennis stillings "electricity, alchemy and the unconscious" in artifex vol 10, spring 1992 pp29-39, which you might be able to get hold of. he talks about a book by ernst benz called *Theology of electricty*, pickwick publications 1989 which i keep meaning to get but havn't got round to yet. it apparantly discusses the use of electricity as a metaphor for the primordial living light of god, and hence its acretion of alchemical symbols, and its use in later alchemy or alchemically influenced discourses. jon Sat Feb 03 23:25:16 1996 Subject: 0146 Belief is Error Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 09:46:21 +1100 From: Petra Gottlieb Belief is error if it just stays believe and not becomes conviction. The Grail Message "In the Light of Truth" starts in this way: FOR YOUR GUIDANCE! THE BANDAGE FALLS, and belief becomes conviction. Liberation and redemption lie only in CONVICTION... ...Only he who bestirs himself can advance spiritually. The fool who uses extraneous aids for this, in the form of the ready-made opinions of others, only walks his path as if on crutches, while ignoring his own healthy limbs... ...Therefore awake! Genuine faith lies only in CONVICTION, and CONVICTION comes solely through an inflexible weighing and examining! See that you are truly alive in the wonderful Creation of your God! --- Petra Christiane Gottlieb >>OHNE LIEBE KEINE KUNST!<< (Paracelsus) WITHOUT LOVE THERE IS NO ART!Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 09:46:21 +1100 X-Sender: petrag@iaccess.com.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: petrag@iaccess.com.au (Petra Gottlieb) Subject: Belief is Error Belief is error if it just stays believe and not becomes conviction. The Grail Message "In the Light of Truth" starts in this way: FOR YOUR GUIDANCE! THE BANDAGE FALLS, and belief becomes conviction. Liberation and redemption lie only in CONVICTION... ...Only he who bestirs himself can advance spiritually. The fool who uses extraneous aids for this, in the form of the ready-made opinions of others, only walks his path as if on crutches, while ignoring his own healthy limbs... ...Therefore awake! Genuine faith lies only in CONVICTION, and CONVICTION comes solely through an inflexible weighing and examining! See that you are truly alive in the wonderful Creation of your God! --- Petra Christiane Gottlieb >>OHNE LIEBE KEINE KUNST!<< (Paracelsus) WITHOUT LOVE THERE IS NO ART! Sun Feb 04 14:52:04 1996 Subject: 0147 Aurum Potabile Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 20:00:42 -0500 (EST) From: John Reid My understanding about aurum potable is that it contains no traces of gold whatsoever. The idea is to get the salts of gold and extract from them a red tincture. From this tincture can be distilled a yellow to red colored oil, aka aurum potable. Just dissolving gold into some solution will not do, because the toxic properties of gold have not been removed. I have never made aurum potable, but I have made the oils of Iron, copper, lead and antimony. When made properly these substances contain no traces of the mineral in question. This has been verified by spectroanlysis, gas and high pressure chromotography, and atomic absorbtion that is sensitive enough to detects in parts per trillion. The problem with gold is that once it is taken out of the dissolving medium the salts tend to go back into metallic form. This is why the Philosophers Mercury is needed, it completly opens and dissolves the gold yeilding up its soul, from which the oil of gold can be separated. At least this is what the ancients claim. Your Brother and Servant John H. Reid III Sun Feb 04 14:52:13 1996 Subject: 0148 Questions for YOU ... From: Jon Marshall Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 11:50:00 -0800 On Feb 1, 9:01pm, Alchemy forum wrote: > From: Diane Munoz > Has anyone read "Hermes Unveiled" and/or "The Language of the Gods" by > Roy Norvill? They are really fascinating in that they address the ancient > myths, Bible included, fairy tales etc and view them from a perspective of > Hermetic code. I think Mr. Norvill has come up with some ingenius > understandings of the codes used in the Bible to explain the matter of > enlightenment, transmutation, and the alchemical process of changing the > body to have access and understanding of the finer realms. > > Any comments? one of my aquaintances once thought that having read norvill (and don't forget the final in the trilogy "the golden understanding", in which alchemy is revealed to be positive thinking) he no longer had to read anything else on the subject! I personally find norvill's tendency to reduce history to fable somewhat over deterministic. The 12 apostles may be fictions- but Edward Kelly was real. he is too well documented to be otherwise. And while robert Boyle certainly was engaged in alchemy and allegorical writing- it is pretty much a travesty to imply that he was not interested in chemistry or medicine in the normal sense, but covertly describing a purely mental work. This is not to say that these books aren't interesting, but they should perhaps be read with large amounts of salt- to ground them :) jon Sun Feb 04 14:52:22 1996 Subject: 0149 Ferric oxide? Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 22:43:15 -0700 (MST) From: Tom Hennessy > > b) Gold is dissolved by thiourea, ferric oxide, etc. - a significant > > Excuse me in my stupidity. > > Does this mean that gold is 'destroyed'.. by > iron oxide or rust? > > If gold is so good as a medicinal.. ie: collodiol > gold .. would it be 'destroyed'.. in our body by the 'excess iron'.. > which was previously mentioned in an earlier post? > > If we considered for a second... that our bodies were just a 'test > tube'.. full of water.. would rust {ferric oxide?} .. 'destroy'.. ALL.. the > 'big'.. ones such as silver/gold/magnesium? > > Or.. is ferric oxide .. NOT.. rust. > > Again forgive my stupidity. > > Who loves ya. > Tom http://www.nucleus.com/watchman > Sun Feb 04 14:52:32 1996 Subject: 0150 Lao Tzu Trismegistus? Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 00:45:22 -0500 From: Rawn Clark >Todd R. Rossman >0068 answers?, questions ... > >He who knows does not speak. >He who speaks does not know. >Block all the passages! >Shut all the doors! >Blunt all edges! >Untie all tangles! >Harmonize all lights! >Unite the worlds into one whole! >This is called the Mystical Whole, >Which you cannot court after nor shun, >Benefit nor harm, honour nor humble. >Therefore, it is the Highest of the world. >>>>Lao Tzu These words remind me of the following lines from the Emerald Tablet: "....Its power is complete if turned towards Earth. It will separate Earth from Fire, the Subtle from the Gross. With great Wisdom it ascends from Earth to Heaven. Again it descends to Earth, and takes back the power of the Above and the Below. Thus you will receive the glory of the distinctiveness (light of Lights) of the world. All obscurity will flee from you. This is the whole most strong strength of all strength, for it overcomes all subtle things, and penetrates all solid things...." :) Rawn Clark 3 Feb 96 |
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