Alchemy Forum 0551-0600

From January 25th 1996, the Alchemy forum was restructured and the messages were sequentially numbered. This is an unedited extract of messages 551-600.
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Thu Mar 28 10:20:52 1996
Subject: 0551 Books Search - Cremona's Geomancie

Gerard Cremonensis of Astronomical Geomancy is contained in the Robert Turner compilation The Fourth Book of Occult Philosophy, London, 1655.

Adam McLean

Thu Mar 28 10:47:26 1996
Subject: 0552 Books Search - Aesch Mezareph

Printed books:-

Christian Knorr von Rosenroth.
Kabbala Denudata. Sulzbach, 1677-84.
[Includes text in Latin.]

A Short enquiry concerning the Hermetick art... By a lover of Philalethes. To which is annexed, a collection from Kabbala denudata, and translation of the chymical-cabbalistical treatise, intitules, Æsch-Mezareph; or, purifying fire. London 1714.

[This English version was reprinted in W. Westcott's Collectanea Hermetica series at the end of the 19th Century.]

---------------------------------------------------
Later Manuscripts:-

London, Wellcome Institute MS. 1737.
p206-end The Aesch-Mezareph or Purifying Fire. [Translated, with an index to the Hebrew words from the 'Kabbala denudata' by Christian Knorr von Rosenroth.]
[Holograph translation and an original treatise, etc. by Charles William Hoyland.]
[With some notes by Julius Kohn.]

London, Wellcome Institute MS. 1763.
Compendium libri cabalistico-chymici [Hebrew] seu Aesch Mezareph dicti de Lapide Philosophorum.

London, Wellcome Institute MS. 1764.
Compendium libri cabalistico-chymici [Hebrew] seu Aesch Mezareph dicti de Lapide Philosophorum.

London, Wellcome Institute MS. 2950.
Hoyland, Charles William. Collection of translations, notes and extracts from alchemical authors, and from Knorr von Rosenroth's 'Cabbala denudata', mostly incomplete or fragmentary. Authors holograph. Includes :
Resumé of 'Sepher Itzirah'.
Sancta Kabbala.
'The Keys' - remarks and enquiries on the great mysteries of Hermetic Philosophy.
'Aesch Mezareph' (fragments.)

Glasgow University Library MS. Ferguson 68.
[Christian Knorr Von Rosenroth]
1. f1-52 Aesch Mezareph: sive Ignis Purificans.
[Note added in later hand]: 'collected out of the Kabbalah Denudata, abridged beginning at page 1'
[On inside front cover at top]: 'in 1710 I first heard of this treatise' [and] '23 Augst 1712'.
[Very similar to Westcott's edition 'AEsch Mezareph or purifying fire', London, 1894, but this manuscript breaks off partway through the last chapter.]
2. f53-69 [Quotations out of Kabbalah Denudata.]
[Notes in Latin with page references to Knorr von Rosenroth's 'Kabbala Denudata seu doctrina Hebraeorum...', Sulzbaci, Francofurti, 1677-84.]
f70-75 [Blank.]
3. f76 [Table at end as index to references to Cabbalistic Chemistry and the Philosophers' Stone in the Kabbalah Denudata.]

Orléans MS. 1034.
Une courte recherche concernant l'art hermétique, adressée à ceux qui étudient cette science, par un amateur de philalète, à laquelle est annexée une collection, tirée de la Kabbala denudata, et la traduction du traité chimique kabbalistique, intitulé Eschmezareph ou le feu purifiant, traduit de l'anglois en françois. Londres, imprimé l'an 1714.

Thu Mar 28 14:53:49 1996
Subject: 0553 Thank you for advice on LPN

Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 08:07:03 -0600
From: Roy M. Liuzza

Many thanks to those who replied both privately and publicly to my
request for opinions on the Philosophers of Nature; your information has
been very helpful.

I am quite impressed by the speed and generosity of the members of
this forum; if anyone needs information about Old and Middle English (my
own fields of expertise), I hope I can help as quickly and open-handedly.

-- Roy Liuzza
rliuzza@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu

Fri Mar 29 10:27:23 1996
Subject: 0554 Creation of Man on Earth

From: Petra Gottlieb
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 11:58:30 GMT

To Pat's >>I am sticking to the theme that ET did it!<<

God created HEAVEN "AND" "EARTH"! = The above "and" the below!
It is absolutely essential to understand the concept of INCARNATION,
otherwise one will never understand the alchemical processes, especially
when it comes to "coagulate" with a mediator between two opposites.
Scientist today still wrack their brains, all in vain are they searching
for A MISSING LINK without realising that there is no missing link as the
following lecture will reveal. Everything in Creation evolved in a
consistant, logical and sequential way exactly according to "natural" Laws.

Subject: THE CREATION OF MAN
(Lecture taken from the GRAIL MESSAGE ~ "IN THE LIGHT OF TRUTH"
by Abd-ru-shin [Oskar Ernst Bernhardt] Vol. II/3
Copyright 1971 by Irmingard Bernhardt, Vomperberg/Tyrol
ISBN 3-87860-093-3 - (URL: http://www.aone.net.au/grail )

[Text of lecture removed for copyright reasons.]
So man took up the ape body and cultivated it to the physical appearance we
are now. He gradually lost hair, made use of the thumb and so developed a "
Hand" with which he could make his own clothes and many other things which
the animals could not. Soon he stood upright, and started civilisation,
while the apes remaining with the "animistic" core (originating from
Unconscious Animistic Substanciality, the realm below the Spiritual
Substanciality) gradually got extinct.

For the sake of a more comprehensive view of Creation, the main spheres from
above downwards are once more reproduces here from the Grail Message Vol.II/39:

1. The Divine: ( i ) Divinity Unsubstantiate = God
( ii ) Divine Substantiality

2. Spiritual Substantiality: ( i ) Conscious Spiritual Substantiality
( ii ) Unconscious Spiritual Substantiality

3. Animistic Substantiality: ( i ) Conscious Animistic Substantiality
( ii ) Unconscious Animistic Substantiality

4. The Spheres of Matter: ( i ) Ethereal Substance
( ii ) Gross Matter

---
Petra Christiane Gottlieb
petrag@iaccess.com.au
---
WO KEIN LIEB, DA IST KEIN KUNST! (Paracelsus)
WITHOUT LOVE THERE IS NO ART!

Fri Mar 29 16:39:45 1996
Subject: 0555 Books Search - Aesch Mezareph

From: Pavel Korensky
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 09:38:11 +0100 (GMT+0100)

Alchemy forum wrote:
> Printed books:-
>
> Christian Knorr von Rosenroth.
> Kabbala Denudata. Sulzbach, 1677-84.
> [Includes text in Latin.]

Thank you for the informations regarding the Aesch Mezareph manuscript. But the
version from Kabbala Denundata is not what I seek. I have these translations of
the manuscript, based on the von Rosenroth version. But I asked about the
original manuscript. Anybody knows where is stored the original ??

Best regards

Pavel Korensky

--
****************************************************************************
* Pavel Korensky (pavelk@dator3.anet.cz) *
* DATOR3 Ltd., Modranska 1895/17, 143 00 Prague 4, Czech Republic *
* PGP key fingerprint: 00 65 5A B3 70 20 F1 54 D3 B3 E4 3E F8 A3 5E 7C *
**********

Fri Mar 29 16:40:45 1996
Subject: 0556 Creation of Man on Earth

From: Pat Zalewski
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 96 23:51 NZST

Thank's for the information petra but apart from reincarnation (I am an
edgar cayce fan from way back) the rest of it I don't buy. But again, thanks
for the advice.

Pat zalewski

Fri Mar 29 16:42:23 1996
Subject: 0557 Books Search: L'Art du Potier

Date: 29 Mar 96 10:14:28 EST
From: Jean Dauge

Les trois Libvres de l'Art du Potier
Du cavalier Cyprian Piccolopassi
Translates de l Italien en langue Francoise par Maistre Claudis Popelyn

Reprint de l' edition de Paris 1860.

MILAN editon Archee

( In Folio) sd 1970 ?

J.Dauge

Mon Apr 01 09:47:03 1996
Subject: 0558 DNA and Music - Follow-up

From: John Obrien
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 13:47:07 -0600 (CST)

After generating a little interest in the subject of music derived from
DNA sequences last week (As a comment about the relationship of music
to Alchemy), I did a little research and got the following information.

From: Zeenaught@aol.com
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 01:31:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Music derived from genetic sequences; question

Does anyone know any details about who, what, where...?

Write to:

David Deamer, Science and the Arts
P.O. Box 8162
Berkeley, CA 94707

I have purchased some of the available disks and cassetes and found they make
great gifts for my science and biology professors.

<<<<< Also >>>>

From: robison@nucleus.harvard.edu (Keith Robison)
Subject: Re: Music derived from genetic sequences; question
Date: 30 Mar 1996 14:16:42 GMT
Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, Massachusetts

: Does anyone know any details about who, what, where...?

Susumu Ohno has done some of this work. If I remember correctly,
you can get a bunch of citations by searching Medline for
"dna and music".

Some Medline search services can be found via
http://golgi.harvard.edu/htbin/biopages?medline

robison@mito.harvard.edu

I did a Medline search and retreived the following citation.

THE ALL PERVASIVE PRINCIPLE OF REPETITIOUS RECURRENCE GOVERNS NOT ONLY CODING
SEQUENCE CONSTRUCTION BUT ALSO HUMAN ENDEAVOR IN MUSICAL COMPOSITION.

Ohno S; Ohno M

Immunogenetics 24: 71-8 (1986)

Abstract
Organisms which have evolved on this earth are governed by multitudes
of periodicities; tomorrow is another today, and the next year is
going to be much like this year. Accordingly, the principle of
repetitious recurrence pervades every aspect of life on this earth.
Thus, individual genes in the genome have been duplicated and
triplicated often to the point of redundancy, and each coding sequence
consists of numerous variously truncated as well as variously
base-substituted copies of the original primordial building block base
oligomers and their allies. This principle even appears to govern the
manifestations of human intellect; musical compositions also rely on
this principle of repetitious recurrence. Accordingly, coding base
sequences can be transformed into musical scores using one set rule.
Conversely, musical scores can be transcribed to coding base sequences
of long open reading frames.

Mesh Headings

Animal

DNA*

Evolution

Genes, Structural

Human

Mice

Music*

Phosphoglycerate Kinase

Protein Conformation

Repetitive Sequences, Nucleic Acid*

RNA Polymerase II

Unique Identifier: 86302779

Chemical Identifiers (Names)

EC 2.7.2.3 (Phosphoglycerate Kinase)

EC 2.7.7.- (RNA Polymerase II)

9007-49-2 (DNA)
--
,o888b,`?~~~~~ ~~~~~P',d888o,
,8888 888 ?~~~ John D. O'Brien obriens@sound.net ~~~P 888 8888,
8888888P' ~~~ ~~~ ?8888888
888P' ~~~ "When all the World recognizes ~~~ `?888
`88 O d~~~ good as good, This in itself ~~~b O 88'
`?._ _.o~~~~~ is Evil." Lao Tsu ~~~~~o._ _.P'

Mon Apr 01 09:47:14 1996
Subject: 0559 Violence for violence, murder...

From: Beat Krummenacher
Date: 31 Mar 96 18:59:09 EST

Petra wrote:
>Violence for violence, murder for murder, but thank heavens also, kindness for
kindness, and love for love.<

This statement is based on the law of causality. This law is an important axiom
of hermetics. The Kybalion says:
>Every Cause has its Effect; every Effect has its cause; everything happens
according to Law; Chance is but a name for Law not recognized; there are many
planes of causation, but nothing escapes the Law.<

The natural laws have their basis in this principle. If this principle did not
count, so it would give no legal courses of events in nature. If we utilize the
law of causality, so we must consider two aspects. All events in nature obey
different laws. Any condition leads to an other as consequence of the causality.
According to events different laws can be valid. The way on which a condition is
transported into the next can exactly be either only one certain, or there also
many ways can exist to arrive from one condition at an other. Therefore we have
conditions and ways as the two essential aspects of causality. An example: The
earth circulates the sun on one exactly defined path through the law of gravity.
The law determines, when the earth will take up a certain position to the sun.
The place at the moment of the spring as a certain spatial condition of the
earth goes over in the condition, i.e. place at the moment of the fall after a
certain time. As long as the solar system owns the present order, the earth will
exactly take up a place relatively to the sun after a certain time. There is
only one way.

Also the karma is based on the law of causality. In contrast to the gravitation
however the karma is subject to more complicated laws. There is more than one
way, how a condition can lead to a next. This fact is of extraordinary
significance.

Let us take the quotation mentioned at the outset. Murder corresponds to a
condition, murder also is the next condition imperatively following from it. The
statement maintains that a man who murders will personally be murdered.
According to the quotation there is only one way, which imperatively leads to
the same following condition. The erroneous acceptance this being right has
seduced many men in the past. If this linearity would be right, so our life
would be pure fatalism. A certain act of man would necessitate the same act as
answer. It give no escaping from the wheel of rebirth. The evolution of
humankind would be impossible.

If one considers the principle of causality, so one would have to say more
correctly:

Violence can call forth violence, murder can call forth murder etc.

Murder does not imperatively have murder for consequence. If a man murders, so
he heaps on himself heavy karma. But in the same or in a following life this man
does not absolutely force himself to be personally murdered. This case can
enter. However it also can happen, that for instance the man loses a very
cherished man through disease. The pain triggered through the loss can rouse in
him the feeling, that each man is irreplaceable. Perhaps he subsequently
recognizes, that the murder of a man will rouse the same feeling in men, which
have been close to the victim. This sympathy will produce in him the certainty,
that murder can solve no problems. In other words: The earlier murderer
recognizes the badness of his act at that time in a quite other way. He does not
have to personally be murdered to come to realize this.

The definition of the principle of causality in the Kybalion especially exactly
describes this: There are several levels of causality, to say ways. Of course
each cause has its effect. The variety of the laws and ways does not lead
however to fixed orders of events, but to abundant possibilities. A certain
condition does not bear therefore exactly a certain following condition, but
opens the entrance to a whole palette of possibilities. A cause always will have
a certain effect. However the effect can not exactly be forecast. Modern physics
has recorded this fact a long time ago. The quantum physics has replaced the
simple causality of the classic physics.

The conclusion: One should be very attentive in the choice of words. Quotations
like that from Petra are dangerous simplifications. They are formulations, which
correspond to the classic physics. The reality disobeys however classic laws. If
we would like to copy the reality in words, we must accordingly choose words,
which meet the complexity of the actual events.

Lapis

Mon Apr 01 15:14:38 1996
Subject: 0560 Books Search: L'Art du Potier

From: Pavel Korensky
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 10:07:52 +0100 (GMT+0100)

> Date: 29 Mar 96 10:14:28 EST
> From: Jean Dauge
>
>
> Les trois Libvres de l'Art du Potier
> Du cavalier Cyprian Piccolopassi
> Translates de l Italien en langue Francoise par Maistre Claudis Popelyn
>
> Reprint de l' edition de Paris 1860.
>
> MILAN editon Archee
>
> ( In Folio) sd 1970 ?
>
> J.Dauge

Thank you for the informations. Do you have any idea where is it possible to get the copy of this book ? Do you have some contact to some library where is it possible to buy the copy ? Or do you know somebody which can make a copy for m?

Thank you for any informations

Best regards

PavelK

--
****************************************************************************
* Pavel Korensky (pavelk@dator3.anet.cz) *
* DATOR3 Ltd., Modranska 1895/17, 143 00 Prague 4, Czech Republic *
* PGP key fingerprint: 00 65 5A B3 70 20 F1 54 D3 B3 E4 3E F8 A3 5E 7C *
****************************************************************************

Mon Apr 01 17:48:51 1996
Subject: 0561 Violence for violence, murder...

From: Mike Graffam
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 08:58:17 -0500 (EST)

On Mon, 1 Apr 1996, Alchemy forum wrote:
> This statement is based on the law of causality. This law is an important axiom
> of hermetics. The Kybalion says:
> >Every Cause has its Effect; every Effect has its cause; everything happens
> according to Law; Chance is but a name for Law not recognized; there are many
> planes of causation, but nothing escapes the Law.<

Indeed. This is actually one of the reasons that I dont buy to heavily
into hermetics: I dont think that causality is necessarily true. Sure,
we interpret things that way, and order our thoughts according to this
principle, but that doesnt mean it has an objective reality outside
our thoughts. It is interesting to note that if you accept this view
everything that happens (including chance) is a product of our mind's
"ordering system" - and nothing (perceivable by us) escapes "the Law".

Michael Graffam - mgraffam@mhv.net
http://www1.mhv.net/~mgraffam - Mysticism, Philosophy and Art Page
Make way for the mystic, the pure, the artistic, who, roused by a holy
elation will dance till the dawn and rest in the morn as is fit for
this fair celebration. (Aristophanes' Frogs)

Tue Apr 02 07:27:02 1996
Subject: 0562 Violence for violence, murder...

From: Barry Carter
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 11:21:29 +0000

Dear Friends,

Petra and Lapis wrote about the law of karma. Petra wrote about the
strict accounting and Lapis wrote about how it is modified by events.
As I understand it the purpose of the law of karma is to resolve our
separation from one another. In order to hurt another one must
assume that the other is not connected to oneself and that they will
not really feel the pain. This assumption is proven false by the
pain we feel.

Some people will justify their addictive behavior by saying that
since the law of karma must be fulfilled it is ok to be the agent
which brings karma to another. The Bible says "it is right that
offences should come, but woe unto him who brings them" and "all
things are lawful, but not all are helpfull". Yes, it is according to
the laws of God or the universe to cause suffering but doing so ties
you to the wheel of karma. The Buddha said "There is suffering" and
"selfish desire (addiction) is the cause of suffering." If you want
to end suffering you must end addiction.

Suppose I steal a TV set from another. I would be doing this to
achieve the gratification of watching television. The _feeling_
which I create in the owner of the TV is one of being violated and a
sense of loss at not having the TV. My karma for this act would be
to have an experience which reveals, to me, the feeling that I have
"caused". That experience can take any form as long as it evokes the
feeling. When I have the same feeling that I have caused in another
I will think twice about causing that feeling again since I have had
that feeling myself and I know how it feels.

E.E. Cummings wrote:

pleasure and pain are both surfaces,
one itself hiding,itself revealing one.
life's only and true value,neither is.
love makes the little thickness of the coin.

This poem contains a deceptively simple description of the law of
karma and the law of grace. The law of grace says that we don't
necessarily have to suffer in the way we have caused suffering.
Instead we can set about learning the lesson that suffering would
prompt us to learn without waiting to be prompted by suffering. We
can learn love.

T. S. Eliot expressed this, as well, in the Four Quartets:

The dove descending breaks the air
With flame of incandescent terror
Of which the tongues declare
The one discharge from sin and error.
The only hope, or else despair
Lies in the choice of pyre or pyre
To be redeemed from fire by fire.

Who then devised the torment? Love.
Love is the unfamiliar Name
Behind the hands that wove
The intolerable shirt of flame
Which human power cannot remove.
We only live, only suspire
Consumed by either fire or fire.

We are either consumed by desire (addiction) or by suffering. Love
is our redemption from both of these fires. Eliot goes on to say:

We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.
Through the unknown, remembered gate
When the last of earth left to discover
Is that which was the beginning;
At the source of the longest river
The voice of the hidden waterfall
And the children in the apple-tree
Not known, because not looked for
But heard, half-heard, in the stillness
Between two waves of the sea.
Quick now, here, now, always
A condition of complete simplicity
(Costing not less than everything)
And all shall be well and
All manner of thing shall be well
When the tongues of flame are in-folded
Into the crowned knot of fire
And the fire and the rose are one.

When we have left the fold through desire, the only redemption is to
return to the fold by suffering or by helping others to end their
suffering. The tongues of desire are in-folded through expiation
into the crowned knot of fire or, in other words, the Christ or the
Godhead. And the fire and the rose are one.

It is important to remember that the key to karma is not suffering but
the realization that others feel as we do. To come under the law of
grace we must learn the difference between natural and artificial
guilt. Artificial guilt sees a picture hanging crooked on the wall
and instead of righting it, artificial guilt says what kind of awful
person would leave such a crooked picture on the wall. Artificial
guilt then punishes itself for being such an awful person.

Natural guilt, on the other hand, sees the crooked picture and
straightens it; no weeping, no wailing, no gnashing of teeth.
Natural guilt is a sort of aesthetic sense. It is a sense of
rightness and a carefullness in being sensitive to the currents of
time and circumstance which can disrupt the flow of one's life.

You can use natural guilt to remain centered in the law of grace.
When walking through a herd of sleeping elephants (our karma) it is
important to be quiet and balanced. Do not run screaming through the
herd.

Since the separation (and I'm not talking about individuality or
uniqeness here) is the problem, the solution lies in exploring our
connection to the infinite. This connection is love. Love is NOT
desire; it is acceptance. Ultimately, if we are all children of the
living God and the fire and the Rose are one, ("If you will know
yourselves, then you will be known and you will know that you are
the children of the living father") you will realize that "I and my
father are one" and God will be "all in all".

The key here is not just acceptance and forgiveness of others rather
it is the realization that we are all connected and that we must also
accept and forgive ourselves in order to adequately forgive others.

In , "The Doctrine of Transcendental Magic" by Eliphis Levi it is
said that for those who hold in the right hand the clavicles of Solomon
and in the left hand the Branch of the Blossoming Almond there are
certain powers which accrue. These are powers which are associated
with the Philosophers Stone. One of these powers, the ability "to
conquer love and hate" which I would rephrase as the ability to
conquer desire and hate, is a necessity for the alchemical work. The
carefullness and balance that one must achieve in order to be
successful in alchemical chemistry mutually reinforces and is
reinforced by the carefullness and balance in one's life. This
carefullness and balance moves us "above all griefs and all fears".

The I Ching is about how to hold your mouth in order to get what you
want. It often councils us to hold our mood swings in bounds:

The joyous mood is infectious and therefore brings success. But
joy must be based on steadfastness if it is not to degenerate
into uncontrolled mirth. Truth and strength must dwell in the
heart, while gentleness reveals itself in social intercourse.

Alchemy teaches this carefullness and balance since there is so much
of an interaction with the material and the mind. With alchemy we
get quick feedback if we harbor anger or doubts since the processes
will often not work in the face of our anger or doubts. When this is
understood the spiritual alchemy takes place.

I am including the rest of the quote from "The Doctrine of
Transcendental Magic" by Eliphis Levi for those who have not seen it.

"Aleph". "He beholds God face to face without dying and
converses familiarly with the seven genie who are in command of
the entire celestial army". "Beth", " He is above all griefs and
all fears". "Gimel", "He reigns with all Heaven and is served by
all Hell". "Daleth", "He rules his own health and life and can
influence equally those of others". "He", "He can neither be
surprised by misfortune nor overwhelmed by disasters nor can he
be conquered by his enemies". "Vau", "He knows the reason of the
past, present and future". "Zayin", "He possesses the secret of
the resurrection of the dead and the Key of Immortality". "Such
are the seven chief privileges and those which next are these".
"Cheth", "To find the Philosophical Stone". "Teth", "To possess
the universal medicine". "Yod", "To know the laws of perpetual
motion and prove the quadrature of the circle". "Kaph", "To
change into gold, not only all metals, but also the Earth itself
and even the refuse of the Earth". "Lamed", "To subdue the most
ferocious animals and have power to pronounce those words which
paralyze and charm serpents". "Mem", "To have the Ars Nestoria
which gives the Universal Science." "Nun", "To speak learnedly
on all subjects without preparation and without study". These
finally are the seven least powers of the Magus. "Samekh", "To
know at a glance the deep things of the souls of men and the
mysteries of the hearts of women". Whoa! "Ayin", "To force
nature to make him free at his pleasure". "Pe", "To foresee all
future events which do not depend on a superior free will or on
an indiscernible cause". "Sadhe", "To give at once and to all the
most efficacious consolations and the most wholesome counsel".
"Koph", "To triumph over adversities". "Resh", "To conquer love
and hate". "Shin", "To have the secret of wealth. To be always
its master and never its slave. To enjoy even poverty and never
become abject or miserable". "Tav", "Let us add to these three
sepentaries that the wise man rules the elements, stills the
tempest, and cures the disease by his touch and raises the dead".

Barry Carter
Blue Mountain Native Forest Alliance
Voice 541-523-3357
Fax 541-523-9438

Insanity is doing the same thing
and expecting different results.

Tue Apr 02 07:27:14 1996
Subject: 0563 Violence for violence, murder...

From: al4302@mail.eclipse.co.uk
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 23:02:43 +0100

At 19:58 01/04/96 +0000, you wrote:
>From: Mike Graffam
>Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 08:58:17 -0500 (EST)
>
>
>On Mon, 1 Apr 1996, Alchemy forum wrote:
>> This statement is based on the law of causality. This law is an important
>axiom
>> of hermetics. The Kybalion says:
>> >Every Cause has its Effect; every Effect has its cause; everything happens
>> according to Law; Chance is but a name for Law not recognized; there are many
>> planes of causation, but nothing escapes the Law.<
>
>Indeed. This is actually one of the reasons that I dont buy to heavily
>into hermetics: I dont think that causality is necessarily true. Sure,
>we interpret things that way, and order our thoughts according to this
>principle, but that doesnt mean it has an objective reality outside
>our thoughts. It is interesting to note that if you accept this view
>everything that happens (including chance) is a product of our mind's
>"ordering system" - and nothing (perceivable by us) escapes "the Law".

But what if all you touch and all you see is the product of the
collective mind?

Tue Apr 02 07:27:23 1996
Subject: 0564 The Law of Reciprocal Action

From: Petra Gottlieb
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 10:06:03 GMT

In response to Beat Krummenacher's
>>Quotations like that from Petra are dangerous simplifications<<

The only "danger" lies in the RECIPROCAL ACTION of what oneself has put
into the world !!! No one can escape this action!
Not Beat Krummenacher's INTELLECTUAL ACROBATICS can change the Cosmic Law of
Reciprocal Action which carry DIVINE JUSTICE from the beginning of time, ---
but by degree, the effects may be weakened , if a violent man in his heart
has, in the meantime, become a SAMARITER, and the murderer a SAINT.

---
Petra Christiane Gottlieb
petrag@iaccess.com.au
---
WO KEIN LIEB, DA IST KEIN KUNST! (Paracelsus)
WITHOUT LOVE THERE IS NO ART!

Tue Apr 02 07:27:39 1996
Subject: 0565 alchemical music

From: ScotKelly
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 1996 22:37:28 -0500

On March 25th Patrice Coulombe wrote:
> I am a music composer and I am very interested in alchemical studies.
>So,I need some information about music in alchemy. Is there alchemical
>music as there are alchemical books? Are you aware of examples of music
>which explain by allegories or by musical techniques the steps of the
>alchemical process? Is it possible to make alchemical music? Are there
musician
>alchemists? Is there music in the alchemical repertoire?

I have two very different references to alchemical music that I have
encountered while studying alchemy. The first is from _Al-kemi A Memoir...
R.A. Schwaller de Lubicz_ by Andre VandenBroeck. On pages 62-71,
VandenBroeck describes his simultaneous exploration of the interval of the
diminished fifth, which was called the "diabolus in musica" by a few
generations of popes, and the pythagorean comma which anchors a cyclical
tonal system. Though only a few pages, this section touches on the basis of
proof for sacred science and the inscription of knowledge through the
primary instruments that create form: volume, color, number, vibration, etc.
There are also some very interesting plates in the center of the book that
use the tetractys as a basis for relating human senses, which are tools of
perception, to the alchemical priciples, the four ancient elements,
qualities, colors, and postulating a place for the Philosopher's Stone
outside but connected to this tetractys.

The secondtc. ?

Thank you for any help

Best regards
bound volume of Theosopy magazine and the article starts on page 119. It
references a March 6, 1931 Science magazine that contains an article written
by Dr. Donald H. Andrews of John Hopkins who took the complex rates of
vibration of a number of chemical substances and played the corresponding
musical chords on a piano. To give an example, he found that alcohol has a
chord of seven notes which he describes as "seductive". Wood alcohol on the
other hand, which is a poison, has a harsh sound although the the two are
chemically very closely related.

While recently reading Michael Scheider's _A Beginner's Guide to
Constructing the Universe_, I came across two salient quotes:

Plato: "The good, of course, is always beautiful, and the beautiful never
lacks proportion."

Socrates: "If measure and symmetry are absent from any composition in any
degree, ruin awaits both the ingredients and the composition.."

My question is, can a system(s) be devised that takes the vibrational
inscription of a substance, object, emotion, etc. and through the
interpretation of this inscripion by music, geometry, color, architecture,
etc. further define and elaborate on the qualities and correspondences of
that substance, object, emotion, etc.? Or is this knowledge unveiled by
intuition and shifts in perception alone? Is the separation of number from
form equivalent to the separation of spirit from matter?

Scot Kelly (makara@ios.com)

Tue Apr 02 07:39:32 1996
Subject: 0566 Karma in Western alchemy?

I noted the recent discussions on "Violence for violence, murder...", and "The law of reciprocal action", and this recalled to my mind that I had never been able to find any significant references to the idea of karma and reincarnation in early alchemical texts. One might have thought that with the alchemists exploration of processes of decay, death, transformation and new birth, that there would have been some substantial exploration of the idea of reincarnation or metempsychosis. However, unless I am missing some obvious point, I just cannot find these ideas explored in alchemical texts. F. Mercurius van Helmont in the late 17th century does discuss certain ideas which some people have seen as prefiguring reincarnation, but I found this reference far from clear.
Ideas of karma and reincarnation seem to enter hermetic philosophy late in the 19th century through the Theosophists, but are there any earlier references?

Adam McLean

Tue Apr 02 09:57:54 1996
Subject: 0567 M.A. Atwood's father

I have a reference to a poem on alchemy, entitled 'The Enigma of alchemy' by Thomas South, M.A. Atwood's father. This was printed in the Theosophical Journal 'The Quest' Volume 10 (2) Jan 1919, pages 213-225. Does anyone know this piece or have a copy of it?

Adam McLean

Tue Apr 02 15:42:26 1996
Subject: 0568 alchemical music

From: Gionni Di Gravio
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 17:28:57 +1000 (EST)

Dear Patrice and others,

In addition to the composers mentioned, you might like to refer to
Scriabin, Holst (esp. The Planets), Stockhausen, Varese (who I think
based something on Paracelsus). For me, much of 20th century music is
alchemical in nature. Perhaps not in the purpose to set out to represent
calcination or sublimation in such and such a way. But with the more
experimental composers the ideas of purifying and distilling something
unique is what alchemy is all about.

I am a musician also, and for many years wrote, recorded and performed
music in a process which followed an alchemical path. Looking back at the
music over time, signposts were laid which were difficult to see at the
time. The major thrust was to create a unique sound which absorbs
everyone that works on the process. So, for those years, nothing stood in
the road of the work. Family, death, Christmas, birthdays, babies were
all secondary. You would sit there for hours upon hours listening and
relistening, altering, tinkering, purifying. Dreams and life combine and
as the alchemists of old would paint and write a riddle, so I would
scribble a lyric which somehow made sense to me, for someone else god knows!
But it is in this way that alchemy is like art, providing mirrors for
people to gaze in and learn something about the "dark" portions of
themselves and the rest of creation. Exciting stuff.

Sincerely,

`.'
Gionni Di Gravio ( * )
ulgd@dewey.newcastle.edu.au -+-
University of Newcastle, Australia .^:^.

P.S. You might try the writings of Dane Rudyar, also there was a work a
few years ago entitled "Music in Renaissance Magic" by a Tomlinson methinks.X

Tue Apr 02 15:42:38 1996
Subject: 0569 Fate - Law of Reciprocal Action

From: Petra Gottlieb
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 17:08:06 GMT

FATE

[extracted from 'THE GRAIL MESSAGE IN THE LIGHT OF TRUTH' by Abd-ru-shin]

[Text removed for copyright reasons]

This lecture (Vol.II/2) has been taken from THE GRAIL MESSAGE ~
"IN THE LIGHT OF TRUTH" by Abd-ru-shin (Oskar Ernst Bernhardt)
Copyright 1971 by Irmingard Bernhardt, Vomperberg/Tyrol
ISBN 3-87860-093-3 (URL: http://www.aone.net.au/grail )

__________________________________________________________

You have the choice! Take it or leave it!
---
Petra Christiane Gottlieb
petrag@iaccess.com.au
---
WO KEIN LIEB, DA IST KEIN KUNST! (Paracelsus)
WITHOUT LOVE THERE IS NO ART!

Tue Apr 02 22:59:17 1996
Subject: 0570 M.A. Atwood's father

Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 12:33:16 -0500
From: photopro

I have one Atwood book- 'A suggestive Inquiry into Hermetic Mystery' by
MARY ANNE Atwood but truly I have not read it all or recently. Try:
WIESERS BOOKSTORE IN NYC THIS IS THE BIGGEST SOURCE OF OCCULT AND
HERMETIC AND PHILOSOPHIES OF DIFFERENT KINDs (ANCIENT MYSTERIES). IT'S
OFF LEXINGTON AVE. IN THE LOW STREETS. I FORGET AT THE MOMENT BUT CAN
GET IT THE ADDRESS FOR YOU IF YOU DESIRE. Wisa

Tue Apr 02 22:59:30 1996
Subject: 0571 Fate - Law of Reciprocal Action

From: MARGARET MARY-THERESA BROWN, SUNY BUFFALO
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 1996 12:56:12 -0500 (EST)

Petra:
>Men speak of deserved and undeserved fate, of reward and punishment,
>retribution and karma.

>All these are only part-designations of a Law resting in Creation:
>>>THE LAW OF RECIPROCAL ACTION!<<

The most insightful (IMO) analysis of the situation I've ever
heard was: "Fuck Karma."

Because what if its your place in the universe to do this or that?
Who can say? Flapping around about Karma is IMO a new spin on
the duality/ethics/good vs. evil thing and I don't want to do
THAT again.

IMO so long as you're doing your own true will, no need to
worry about the rest.

- Peggy -

PS: I think that people who really have found their own true will
are less prone to mess with other people than those who have
not, and when they do mess with other people they do it well.

PSPS: What does this have to do with alchemy anyway?

Tue Apr 02 22:59:42 1996
Subject: 0572 Kerotakis

From: Jfruther
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 13:18:56 -0500

Hallo,

I am looking for a description and drawing of a Kerotakis. A Kerotakis is
reflux condenser like the good old Pelican. I am interested in how this one
works and the pro and contra of it.
If someone can give me a drawing so I can build one, I would be happy.

Second question is about using a Pelican. My one is made of transparent glas,
are there any needs for a one made out of brown glas?

If someone would fax a drwaing and explanation so please use: ++49-30-6935862

Thanks

V.I.T.R.I.O.L.

Tue Apr 02 22:59:51 1996
Subject: 0573 Violence for violence, murder...

From: Mike Graffam
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 13:10:31 -0500 (EST)

> But what if all you touch and all you see is the product of the
> collective mind?

That's the point. If all (apparent) sense perception is a product
of the mind it is really no different than saying that all sense
perception is colored by the mind (after all, in either case you
cant be sure what is really there)... in which case all knowledge
of such matters is thrown out. However, you can work with these
things in a given manner (such as working from the assumption that
cause and effect is true) because of the fact that your mind will
order it in this manner consistently (for instance, have you
ever heard a noise in your backyard at night and thought "it had
no cause - it just happened?" No, of course not - you automatically
think "What caused that?!" ..and maybe even jump up to find out
what it was.)

This consistent ordering is one of the reasons that I started
studying Kabbalah, alchemy, astrology, tarot, and the like.
All of them are symbolic systems that allow one to order data
is certain ways. And if you interpret your surroundings in a
different way, you will interact with them in a different way,
allowing you to effect certain changes over it (and thus your
life).

Michael Graffam - mgraffam@mhv.net
http://www1.mhv.net/~mgraffam - Mysticism, Philosophy and Art Page
Make way for the mystic, the pure, the artistic, who, roused by a holy
elation will dance till the dawn and rest in the morn as is fit for
this fair celebration. (Aristophanes' Frogs)

Tue Apr 02 23:00:02 1996
Subject: 0574 20th Century Alchemy: Ingaleses mystery solved!

From: Tim Scott
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 1996 11:09:04 -0800

Dear Friends:

[If your interest in alchemy is strictly spiritual and/or academic,
you probably won't be interested in the following. But if you are
interested in its history or praxis you might find it worthwhile.]

I'm sorry that this is a bit long, but I think this is an extremely
important discovery in the history of alchemy.

Some of the readers of this forum may remember that I have been trying
for some time to answer the question "What happened to the Ingaleses?"

For those of you who don't remember or are new to this forum, Richard
Ingalese published a lecture in 1928 in which he claimed to have worked
with his wife starting about 1910 in order to actually create the
Philospher's Stone. He said that they succeeded in producing the White
Stone 1917, and the Red Stone in 1920.

I wrote an article in 1991 summarizing what I had been able to find
up to that time. You can get it at

http://www.levity.com/alchemy/Ingalese.html
or
ftp://ftp.vigra.com/special/tims/ingalese.txt

and apparently other places according to some web searches.

After Ingalese's lecture, the only information I could find from extensive
library research was an article in the Occult Review in 1928 from a writer
who visited Isabella Ingalese and was actually shown the Stone and allowed
to sample it. After that--silence.

To me, the question about their later life was of crucial importance.
After all, as far as I know no one else in the 20th Century (except
perhaps Archibald Cockren) credibly claimed to have any success whatever
in applied alchemy. So I thought it would be of importance to see if the
Ingaleses' life and health were prolonged or improved by the use of this
concoction. They also had a small coterie of friends and supporters who
were given regular dosages of the Stone.

Now come Pat Zalewski and Art Kunkin, two regular contributors to this group
(and both alchemists from way back) whose names are probably familiar to
most readers. Pat encouraged me to research this, since the Ingaleses did
this work in Los Angeles, only 120 miles from where I live. Recently, he
was contacted by email from an interested party who kindly undertook to
investigate this matter and forward the results to me (and I wish to thank
this person [who wishes to remain anonymous] profusely.

Art contacted his friend Steve Peak who brought his considerable research
talents to bear. My friend Richard Merlin also graciously assisted me in
my preliminary researches at the L. A. Public Library.

In summary, our findings are as follows:

Isabella Ingalese (born Mary Weller Robbins) died May 16, 1934 at L. A.
County General Hospital aged 78 years, 3 months and 16 days. Cause of death
was listed as "chronic myocarditis, decompensation edema, with contribution
from chronic nephritis." She was cremated at Hollywood Cemetery on May 18.

Richard Ingalese (born Richard Ward, name legally changed October 1898)
died October 2, 1934, aged 71 years, 5 months and 11 days. The death cert
listed "pulmonary edema acute, arteriosclerosis, softening of the brain
and senility." He was also cremated at Hollywood Cemetery on October 4,
1934.

It is interesting that the doctor notes that he attended the deceased
from May 22, 1934, just a few days after his wife's death. There are also
records of an incompetency action about that time; it seems that he was
in very poor health for the last months of his life.

The copy of Richard's will (unearthed and faxed to me by Steve Peak) is
quite brief, and makes no mention of papers, notes or laboratory equipment.

From one point of view, I guess this closes the case on whether the
Ingaleses found the elixir of eternal life. I suppose it's conceivable
that they could have faked all the records and documents relating to their
deaths and other legal records, but it seems unlikely.

From my point of view, the interesting research is just beginning. I still
believe that it would be extremely fascinating, not to say valuable to
historians and practitioners of alchemy, to attempt to located any
unpublished laboratory notes and writings from the 17 years they did
laboratory alchemy. (One of the things most maddening about alchemy is the
paucity of any records of experimenters.)

I realize that my quest might be chimerical, and that all these papers and
equipment have probably long been discarded, but until I know that for
sure, I will keep looking.

My next area of research: who is Paul Hamilton? He was the neighbor who
reported Richard's death, the executor of his estate, and Richard wrote in
his will (dated March 7th, 1934) "I have no children, and in making this
bequest, I am doing so in recognition of the care and attention shown to
my beloved wife and myself by the said Paul Hamilton."

Could Hamilton have inherited or conserved their priceless laboratory notes?

I will gradually update my article, but for the time being this preliminary
note will have to do. I will submit any substantive discoveries I make in
future, and if Adam deems it of sufficient interest to propagate to the
list I am sure he will do so.

Stay tuned...

Tim Scott

Tue Apr 02 23:00:11 1996
Subject: 0575 M.A. Atwood's father

Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 14:25:27 -0600
From: George Randall Leake III

*no dice...this must be particularly rare...but I do have some helpful
information: it was published in London, and the call number here at least
is AP/4/Q5 (library of congress cataloguing using aacr2 rules)...no copy
elsewhere at UT, but a few odd copies here and there of other issues...this
other info should help...

>I have a reference to a poem on alchemy, entitled 'The Enigma of alchemy' by
>Thomas South, M.A. Atwood's father. This was printed in the Theosophical
>Journal 'The Quest' Volume 10 (2) Jan 1919, pages 213-225. Does anyone know
>this piece or have a copy of it?
>
>Adam McLean

-G.Leake, 512-471-9117 taliesin@mail.utexas.edu

"To be ignorant of what occurred before you were born is to remain always a
child."
-Cicero
"Oh age! oh letters! It is a joy to be alive!...Woe to you, barbarians!"
-Ulrich von Hutten, 1518, Poet Laureate of the German Empire

Tue Apr 02 23:01:45 1996
Subject: 0576 Karma in Western alchemy?

From: Pat Zalewski
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 96 08:03 NZST

The only reference to karma/reincarnation as an original source document
that I recall could possibly only come from either Plato or more importantly
Origen. There are some biblical references that alchemists could have used
but they are obscure.

Pat zalewski

Tue Apr 02 23:01:55 1996
Subject: 0577 Karma in Western alchemy?

From: George Randall Leake III
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 14:03:27 -0600

>Adam McLean writes--->
>I noted the recent discussions on "Violence for violence, murder...", and
>"The law of reciprocal action", and this recalled to my mind that I had
>never been able to find any significant references to the idea of karma and
>reincarnation in early alchemical texts.

*I tend to think that the tenet of 'all is connected' or 'as above, so
below' to some extent can imply some notion of reciprocity or karma; this
could also work with the reincarnation idea in this way, if all is
connected, then would the spirit never leave the universe upon death? And
that all matter is in essence eternal despite transformations?

-G.Leake, 512-471-9117 taliesin@mail.utexas.edu

"To be ignorant of what occurred before you were born is to remain always a
child."
-Cicero
"Oh age! oh letters! It is a joy to be alive!...Woe to you, barbarians!"
-Ulrich von Hutten, 1518, Poet Laureate of the German Empire

Tue Apr 02 23:02:05 1996
Subject: 0578 Law of Causality

From: Rawn Clark
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 15:21:04 -0500

One aspect of the Law of Causality, is that our personal philosophies, pretty
much shape our experience of the Universe. What we sow in the way of
attitudes, preconceptions, biases, all determine our interactions with our
physical surroundings. What we expect, or are only capable of seeing due
to the rigidity (and often fragility) of our philosophy, effectively filters
the infinite Universe, leaving us with but a small portion of it as our arena of
conscious experience.

When we expect to everywhere find evidence of a Severe Divine
Reciprocation, we will find it. Similarly, if we are certain that there are
Benign Laws, we will find them too. The filter of our limited
understandings, serves as the cause for our resultant personal experience of the universe.

Nowhere, can one Law be separated from another. To over-simplify about
one Law while ignoring the simultaneous reality of the other Laws, is a
common error of rationalization and strict intellectualization. This is the
main reason why non-rational techniques like meditation are the basis of
Hermetics...they open the awareness to more inclusive levels of mind.
When placed in context with each other, these several Laws match pace
with the finest Zen aphorisms!

No matter how one experiences the Universe, neither endlessly long quoting
of other's words nor pages of capitalized letters, will ever erase the fact
that every other conceivable experience of the very same Universe is happening now, somewhere. The Hermetic Laws can be used to unlock the
commonality within this seeming chaos; or they can be used to further limit
our perceptions, effectively defining ourselves out of large chunks of the
Infinite.

Though the Kybalion presents them in a very intellectualized context, these
Laws are not graspable in their entirety by so limited an aspect of the human
mind as the rational. They require the solving and integrating power of
meditation for their embrace, and subsequent experiment for their proof-in-
the-fire. As the astral and mental senses are refined, the Universe reveals
a much different face than is commonly seen, and it was from this perspective
that the Kybalion was written (though through the filter of a Victorian
bias!).

:) Rawn Clark
2 Apr 96

Wed Apr 03 08:21:00 1996
Subject: 0579 M.A. Atwood's father

From: LeGrand
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 1996 16:20:15 -0700 (PDT)

Document 1
Author: South, Thomas
Contributors: Wilmshurst, W. L. (Editor)
Title: The Enigma of Alchemy
Publisher: Holmes Publishing Group
Year: 1984
ISBN/Price: 0-916411-19-2 Trade Paper $3.95

This is still inprint and available from Holmes. It's quite brief.

LeGrand
rjb@u.washington.edu

Wed Apr 03 08:21:15 1996
Subject: 0580 Fate - Law of Reciprocal Action

From: Pat Zalewski
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 96 12:44 NZST

Peggy

In Karma you have both the eastern and western perspective and they do
differ. Its not all retribution. from the Western viewpoint the writings
based on the Edgar cayce readings are in my opinion the best. There are all
manner of books out there on cayce and reincarnation/karma. Just do a search
on A.R.E. or Edgar Cayce and it will give you quite a bit of reference
material. I would suggest though that if you read cayce that you be very
careful at the phraseology in the readings, as they have more then one
meaning,. But I warn you, if you do do a study of cayce and karma, the
material in the readings is so vast that it will take years to wade
through.If you are unsure as to who what cayce is, first read `Sleeping
Prophet' by Stern, as it will give you a good background information of the
man and his readings. All the Cayce readings are now on CD rom with good
search software. In one readings Cayce made the comment that on this planet
there are people over a thousand years old. Whether that relates to alchemy
or not I do not know but it is a good reference point.

Pat zalewski

Wed Apr 03 08:21:25 1996
Subject: 0581 M.A. Atwood's father

From: Jon Marshall
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 10:24:49 -0800

On Apr 2, 10:16am, Alchemy forum wrote:
> Subject: 0567 M.A. Atwood's father
> I have a reference to a poem on alchemy, entitled 'The Enigma of alchemy' by
> Thomas South, M.A. Atwood's father. This was printed in the Theosophical
> Journal 'The Quest' Volume 10 (2) Jan 1919, pages 213-225. Does anyone know
> this piece or have a copy of it?

hi i'm sure someone else will have told you but i'm sure this is the peice
published by JD holmes as the Enigma of Alchemy edited my WL Wilmhurst

of which the editor says "its perusal may prompt the comment that if the world
has lost the benefit of the author's exposition of Alchemy, it has been spared
the infliction of a long and turgid poem...."

The opening couplet

AUTHOR of all, Light! all directing, Thou
That in Thy wisdom know'st the when and how

suggests the general tenor

It also perhaps suggests a more cynical reason for the destruction of his
daughter's book, namely that it was so much better than his.....

And i'd still say that that the Suggestive inquiry itself gives the best
exposition of the possible philosophic connections between alchemy and late
neo-platonism of any text i have seen, and does suggest that a further
investigation of this might be fruitful

jon

Wed Apr 03 08:21:34 1996
Subject: 0582 How to produce gold from platinum

From: Joe Champion
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 1996 18:34:10 -0700

The quest for the philosopher's stone continues. I cannot say that I
personally believe in the stone, however, I do believe in the transmutation
of one element to another.

When people get close to the answer the farther they remove themselves from
society. This is accomplished for different reasons, the most commmon being
greed.

For six years I have devoted my life to the technical story of alchemy and it is
a reality that anyone can reproduce. Also, it has been the culprit of
billions of dollars of lost money from investors around the world.

This is not an advertisement, but reality. If you would like to understand
and produce your own precious metals the procedure is laid out in total
detail at the following
URL.

http://www.netzone.com/~discpub/ht_pt.html

No secrets, just repeatable emperical data.

Also, I have covered several topics of how people have lost millions of dollars
which can be found at:

http://www.netzone.com/~discpub

As a practioner of nuclear transmutation (alchemy) I enjoy seeing the
postings to
this group and I offer my thank's to the moderator for allowing me to join.

Joe Champion email discpub@netzone.com
http://www.netzone.com/~discpub

Wed Apr 03 08:21:43 1996
Subject: 0583 Gold

Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 23:38:10 -0500
Subject: Gold

You know: You can make physical gold but it won't stay in that form,
while you can become gold and that is eternal. Wisa

Wed Apr 03 08:21:51 1996
Subject: 0584 Tangents in.

Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 23:46:46 -0500
From: photopro

>
>This consistent ordering is one of the reasons that I started
>studying Kabbalah, alchemy, astrology, tarot, and the like.
>All of them are symbolic systems that allow one to order data
>is certain ways. And if you interpret your surroundings in a
>different way, you will interact with them in a different way,
>allowing you to effect certain changes over it (and thus your
>life).

Mike Graffam

All the Mystical sciences are also and primarily - "tangents in" toward
understanding who you are and becoming that. The Secret of the
Universe, of all the ages, is that everything, being and symbol is
literally You. You are all there is and you are now striving to
recollect your SELF!
Wisa

Wed Apr 03 08:22:10 1996
Subject: 0585 Putrefaction

Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 23:56:16 -0500
From: photopro

Here is a recent meditation that I did on putrefaction after reading a Rosicrucian essay on it by G. Plummer. Wisa

Above and under the Sun are references to THE TREE OF LIFE .

Putrefaction 3/28/96

What shall come out of the dead body? What has died that shall not live eternally? What is the purpose of cycles of life and death when regeneration can uprise a being to heights that need not 'body'?
Is there a height that bestows freedom /triumph of the Spirit over flesh and grave? How can one know?
At what point does the Master with the Golden Body give that up to enter the great unknown by crossing over the threshold to eternity/immortality/infinity?
What is gone? Is anything gone if there is only One, and all is that One and all is in the Mind of God who is all encompassing?
Are we just a thread out of and in The Mind therefore just a seperation or are we the causal reflection (with election) of the whole that God sees himself through? (As above so below. As below so above).
When parts of us die to be replaced (humanity by trans-humanity by godliness) are they gone or changed-transmuted into something new? Why are the sum of the parts of the whole greater than the addition of the individual parts would have been thought t
Why does it smell so odious and repelling to most.? Is it our receptors that are misinterpreting? Is this the odour, the savor that the Bible tells is so pleasing to God? Who is God when there is only One and One raised and purified Man reunites by reco
Death: dying - life: living - flying...steps along the way of Return.
The Memory of Perfection, The recollection of Who I Am. Death and resurrection. It was always there waiting for me to awake , affirm, return...to know that I always was, I always will be, I Am.
Do I smell something? (joke)
Perhaps putrefaction- the breaking down of the material body compounds, decomposition- the freeing of the old to make room for the new!

There are two types of deaths within this illusion that allows room for true vision.
1. Mortal death
2. Immortal death. That of transcendental death with consciousness. Not as you/I /we are now but in potential which is do-able in the now.
Within immortal death does cessation of life activities have to cease? No because change is taking place things will go on. However, this is my meditation always...Change your View (perspective) that changes you, your world and that includes life experi

I am inspired to give to you the Secret Wisdom of all the Ages. And that is: whatever is spoken about and whatever is used as symbol...it is always YOU. YOU are all things under and above the Sun. Know this and read with wisdom. Wisa

Wed Apr 03 21:47:04 1996
Subject: 0586 Fate - Law of Reciprocal Action

From: al4302@mail.eclipse.co.uk
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 09:52:32 +0100

At 23:03 02/04/96 +0000, you wrote:
>From: MARGARET MARY-THERESA BROWN, SUNY BUFFALO
>Date: Tue, 02 Apr 1996 12:56:12 -0500 (EST)
>
>
>Petra:
>>Men speak of deserved and undeserved fate, of reward and punishment,
>>retribution and karma.
>
>>All these are only part-designations of a Law resting in Creation:
>>>>THE LAW OF RECIPROCAL ACTION!<<
>
>The most insightful (IMO) analysis of the situation I've ever
>heard was: "Fuck Karma."
>
>Because what if its your place in the universe to do this or that?
>Who can say? Flapping around about Karma is IMO a new spin on
>the duality/ethics/good vs. evil thing and I don't want to do
>THAT again.
>
>IMO so long as you're doing your own true will, no need to
>worry about the rest.
>
>- Peggy -
>
>PS: I think that people who really have found their own true will
> are less prone to mess with other people than those who have
> not, and when they do mess with other people they do it well.
>
>PSPS: What does this have to do with alchemy anyway?
>

Faith and Fate have everything to do with the Sophic Art but as Petra points
out it is not an excuse for stting back and doing nothing. The Philosophers
all say the it is the gift of God, by this they mean Fate.
Ask yourself would you risk all even you life for your Art, if the answer
is no then you waste your time. Such a risk requires Faith.
Such faith is only avilable once on has discovered what Crowley termed
true will.
Faith is the Inward Prime Matter, it is that simple, childs play.

Wed Apr 03 21:47:15 1996
Subject: 0587 Wieser Books

From: JACK HANDLER
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 04:59:59 -0500

The fact is S. WIESER Books Moved out of their NYC address some months
ago, leaving no forwarding address. The store was everything you say it
was, and I miss them very much.
Imagine going to yr old familiar bookstore one day and finding only an
empty room. Not even a note in the window. Telephone info reports only that
there is "No Listing."
I have been told - vaguely - that Weiser's maintains a mail-order
operation out of some northern state, but I've been unable to find an
address or telephone number for such.
Does anyone have their mail-order address / telephone number? I would
greatly appreciate this information.

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

"...
WIESERS BOOKSTORE IN NYC THIS IS THE BIGGEST SOURCE OF OCCULT AND
HERMETIC AND PHILOSOPHIES OF DIFFERENT KINDs (ANCIENT MYSTERIES). IT'S
OFF LEXINGTON AVE. IN THE LOW STREETS. I FORGET AT THE MOMENT BUT CAN
GET IT THE ADDRESS FOR YOU IF YOU DESIRE. Wisa..."

Wed Apr 03 21:47:25 1996
Subject: 0588 royal art

From: Anthony McCormick
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 22:52:13 +1000 (EST)

i tend to think there is a secret road,a personal way for me to meet my
reasons to acheive,sublimation.drown in the ocean of union,fire.please your
own desire.let us be diligent in our discrimination."seperate the fine from
the gross".dare i call practical alchemy-common science.look within for the
light.seek companions for mutual love.by gods grace will fulfilment.....
have i said enough,is this what i wanted to write.i did it.thanks for the place

yours sincerely
stephen

Wed Apr 03 21:47:37 1996
Subject: 0589 Fate - Law of Reciprocal Action

From: OISPEGGY
Date: Wed, 03 Apr 1996 09:21:27 -0500 (EST)

>From: Pat Zalewski
>In Karma you have both the eastern and western perspective and they do
>differ. Its not all retribution. from the Western viewpoint the writings
>based on the Edgar cayce readings are in my opinion the best. There are all
>manner of books out there on cayce and reincarnation/karma. Just do a search
.....

This sounds like something worth looking at. Who publishes the CD rom?

>In one readings Cayce made the comment that on this planet
>there are people over a thousand years old. Whether that relates to alchemy
>or not I do not know but it is a good reference point.

Maybe karma does have something tangentially to do with alchemy, because
its a universal law -- if it exists at all.

But, even if it does exist, I'm not convinced that it is effective for
me to worry about everything I do (or don't do) because of karmic
implications -- its too complicated and impossible to figure out. I find
it more effective to view my actions as controlled folly and look for the
path with heart -- YMMV of course.

I suspect that many people (besides myself) have had dreams or intuitions
or visions that seem to come from someone/place else. I find these too
poignant to dwell on. Again, YMMV.

- Peggy -

Wed Apr 03 21:47:46 1996
Subject: 0590 Tangents in

From: joshua geller
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 09:15:57 -0800

wisa writes:

> All the Mystical sciences are also and primarily - "tangents in" toward
> understanding who you are and becoming that.

that is certainly one, but hardly the only way to look at it.

>The Secret of the
> Universe, of all the ages, is that everything, being and symbol is
> literally You.

and it is equally not-you.

josh

Wed Apr 03 21:48:01 1996
Subject: 0591 Gold

From: joshua geller
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 09:13:53 -0800

Alchemy forum writes:
> Date: Tue, 2 Apr 1996 23:38:10 -0500
> Subject: Gold

> You know: You can make physical gold but it won't stay in that
> form,

could you clarify this statement please?

if it was gold once and became something else, spontaneously as it
were, it doesn't really meet the definition of 'gold', or at least so
it seems to me.

> while you can become gold and that is eternal. Wisa

yes, outward direction and inward direction. but is there a real
difference, ultimately?

some work upon themselves, some work upon the world, some work upon
both.

josh

Wed Apr 03 21:48:10 1996
Subject: 0592 Violence for violence, murder...

From: Ros Bangham
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 13:04:23 -0500

>From: Beat Krummenacher
>Date: 31 Mar 96 18:59:09 EST
>
>Petra wrote:
>>Violence for violence, murder for murder, but thank heavens also, kindness for
>kindness, and love for love.<

Petra's Violence for violence etc reminds me of the Eye for an Eye law that
man built. It is not a Natural Law. There is no divine law of Karma to
support it. The suggestion that Karma is a kind of moral balance is a
Western cultural distortion of the concept. No one is locked into any
'future' regardless of past actions or deeds. Each moment of your life
brings forth an infinite array of possible choices. You will choose
according to your personal beliefs. Some beliefs you will be aware of. Most
are hidden.
eg: If you believe one must suffer to be 'spiritual', then you will
suffer. Your suffering will not however, aid you on your spiritual path.
Though if that has been your belief, then you will believe it does. If your
suffering gets too great, you may turn away from your spiritual quest,
feeling angry that it caused you such pain. What caused the pain was your
belief in it. The choice is always and only yours.

Ros

Thu Apr 04 10:08:27 1996
Subject: 0593 Gold

From:George Randall Leake III
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 16:09:45 -0600

>From: joshua geller
>some work upon themselves, some work upon the world, some work upon
>both.

*or to put another way "some are born great, some achieve greatness, and
some have greatness thrust upon em!"

Thu Apr 04 10:08:39 1996
Subject: 0594 Kerotakis

From: Claude Gagnon
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 17:51:51 -0500 (EST)

Have you take a look in Forbes' classic *A short history of the art of
distillation*, reedited by Brill.?
Claude Gagnon

Thu Apr 04 10:08:49 1996
Subject: 0595 Eye for Eye...

From: Petra Gottlieb
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 11:12:36 GMT

To: Alchemy@zz.com
Subject: An Eye for an Eye...

In response to Ros Bangham's:
>>Petra's Violence for violence etc reminds me of the Eye for an Eye law
that man built. It is not a Natural Law. There is no divine law of Karma to
support it.<<

This is how I said it:

>>>>>So, generally speaking. Man's FREE WILL only lies in the FREEDOM OF
CHOICE that he has with every minute, every second of his life. The
CONSEQUENCES , however , (good or bad depending on his choice) lies outside
his power. They come rolling at him in accordance to THE COSMIC LAW OF
RECIPROCAL ACTION = CAUSE AND EFFECT, THE LAW OF REPERCUSSION.

In the Old Testament this same Law is described as: AN EYE FOR AN EYE -
A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH, which man erroneously interpreted that he can take
revenge in his own hand, disregarding the command: VENGEANCE IS MINE ! says
the Lord (because it is embedded in HIS ETERNAL AND IMMUTABLE COSMIC LAW! It
takes effect by itself without the interference of man. Herein also lies THE
JUSTICE OF GOD!).

In the New Testament this same Law is described as : WHAT A MAN SOWS HE MUST
REAP. If one sows wheat one can't reap barley. Likewise it is with our
thoughts, words and deeds. They are like seeds, and the harvest is according
to what we have sown. Violence for violence, murder for murder, but thank
heavens also, kindness for kindness, and love for love. <<<<<

.......meaning that "fate", "reward and punishment", "retribution" , "karma"
all take effect in accordance to this great universal COSMIC LAW OF
RECIPROCAL ACTION (Das Gesetz der Wechselwirkung), and that the "Eye for an
eye" just means that one must reap what one has sown, the SAME KIND.

Trust that THE LAW OF RECIPROCAL ACTION is NOT man made!!!

---
Petra Christiane Gottlieb
petrag@iaccess.com.au
---
WO KEIN LIEB, DA IST KEIN KUNST! (Paracelsus)
WITHOUT LOVE THERE IS NO ART!

Thu Apr 04 10:08:59 1996
Subject: 0596 Weiser Books

From: Charla J. Williams
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 20:32:34 -0800 (PST)

> I have been told - vaguely - that Weiser's maintains a mail-order
> operation out of some northern state, but I've been unable to find an
> address or telephone number for such.

Try:
Samuel Weiser Inc.
Box 612
York Beach, Maine 03910-0612

I enjoyed having Weisers, Magickal Childe, and The Bottom Line within
walking distance of each other when I lived in NY. This was when
Weisers was on Broadway, having last lived in NY in 1981.

Regards, Charla

Thu Apr 04 10:09:19 1996
Subject: 0597 Violence for violence, murder...

From: Barry Carter
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 22:18:44 +0000

Ros Bangham wrote:

> No one is locked into any
> 'future' regardless of past actions or deeds. Each moment of your life
> brings forth an infinite array of possible choices. You will choose
> according to your personal beliefs. Some beliefs you will be aware of. Most
> are hidden.
> eg: If you believe one must suffer to be 'spiritual', then you will
> suffer. Your suffering will not however, aid you on your spiritual path.
> Though if that has been your belief, then you will believe it does. If your
> suffering gets too great, you may turn away from your spiritual quest,
> feeling angry that it caused you such pain. What caused the pain was your
> belief in it. The choice is always and only yours.

Rawn wrote:

Nowhere, can one Law be separated from another. To
over-simplify about one Law while ignoring the simultaneous
reality of the other Laws, is a common error of rationalization
and strict intellectualization. This is the main reason why
non-rational techniques like meditation are the basis of
Hermetics...they open the awareness to more inclusive levels of
mind. When placed in context with each other, these several Laws
match pace with the finest Zen aphorisms!

No matter how one experiences the Universe, neither endlessly
long quoting of other's words nor pages of capitalized letters,
will ever erase the fact that every other conceivable experience
of the very same Universe is happening now, somewhere. The
Hermetic Laws can be used to unlock the commonality within this
seeming chaos; or they can be used to further limit our
perceptions, effectively defining ourselves out of large chunks
of the Infinite.

In my work I occasionally get to listen to Native American elders
talk about their spiritual beliefs. Their beliefs are not that
profound but their speech patterns move the mind in circles. These
circles of thought have a profound effect on my conciousness. It is
like being given vision to see other worlds hidden in this one.
Poets do this too. E.E. Cummings called it "the precision which
creates movement".

Alchemical allegory and the allegory of scripture from the Bhagavad
Gita to the Gospel of Thomas use this ability to move the mind of the
reader in a specific direction. Some of the purpose of the
alchemical allegory is not to obscure the technique but rather to
reveal the mental or spiritual poise which is necessary to do the
deed. This poise can be reached through meditation but it must be
cultivated to the point where it becomes a "walking" meditation.

We create our own reality, there indeed is no other law. The
discussion is about how we create our own reality. Karma is
something we carry with us, encoded in our beliefs. There are at
least two ways out of karma; suffering and the subsequent realization
that the belief in separation is the cause of the suffering or
seeking out one's beliefs and watching their interaction with one's
life. I called the second way the law of grace because that is what
Edgar Cayce called it.

Words can only circle the Object-of-Which-We-Speak; pointing,
always, toward it until the listener fixes their attention on the
Object the words are pointing at. Or as T.S. Eliot said:

Trying to learn to use words, and every attempt
Is a wholly new start, and a different kind of failure
Because one has only learnt to get the better of words
For the thing one no longer has to say, or the way in which
One is no longer disposed to say it. And so each venture
Is a new beginning, a raid on the inarticulate
With shabby equipment always deteriorating
In the general mess of imprecision of feeling,
Undisciplined squads of emotion.

The principle which allows free will is that infinity extends both
ways in time, all ways in space and every way in probability. (Have
I missed anything?) We can each choose our next moment from an
infinite number of probable realities. Sort of solipsism for the
masses.

Barry Carter
Blue Mountain Native Forest Alliance
Voice 541-523-3357
Fax 541-523-9438

Insanity is doing the same thing
and expecting different results.

Thu Apr 04 10:09:33 1996
Subject: 0598 Information about herbs;

Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 18:05:05 -0800
From: Clark Stillman

Thanks to Gilbert Arnold for the lead to the USDA for herb info. I've
linked to it for my visitors.

People continue to discover the value of herbs and their place in the
natural order, whether for physical health or spiritual ritual. In this case, there is also a strong connection to cultures and civilizations.
Insights like these can only serve to enrich our lives.

Clark Stillman
***********************************************************************
Access:New Age

All Things--Esoteric and Spiritual, Occult and Metaphysical--All Things

http://www.AccessNewAge.com
***********************************************************************

Thu Apr 04 16:28:00 1996
Subject: 0599 Weiser Books

From: Clinton R. Armitage
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 1996 09:05:19 -0500

>From: JACK HANDLER
>Date: Wed, 3 Apr 1996 04:59:59 -0500
>
>
>Does anyone have their mail-order address / telephone number? I would
>greatly appreciate this information.

This is the mail order address in my file to order from their catalog:

"... Samuel Weiser,Inc.
Box 612, York Beach,Maine 03910 Phone:207-363-4393
Telex:697-1240

-=-=-

Thu Apr 04 16:28:08 1996
Subject: 0600 Fate - Law of Reciprocal Action

From: PEGGY
Date: Thu, 04 Apr 1996 09:34:32 -0500 (EST)

Peggy:

>>The most insightful (IMO) analysis of the situation I've ever
>>heard was: "Fuck Karma."
>>
>>Because what if its your place in the universe to do this or that?
>>Who can say? Flapping around about Karma is IMO a new spin on
>>the duality/ethics/good vs. evil thing and I don't want to do
>>THAT again.
>>
>>IMO so long as you're doing your own true will, no need to
>>worry about the rest.

From: al4302@mail.eclipse.co.uk
>Faith and Fate have everything to do with the Sophic Art but as Petra points
>out it is not an excuse for stting back and doing nothing. The Philosophers
>all say the it is the gift of God, by this they mean Fate.

I don't see where this has anything to do with my comments (above).
I'd be interested to read why some think it is effective to live
as though there is karma, whether it exists or not. I choose to
ignore karma and instead steer by "true will" and "the path with heart."
Not that my way is best, but its what works for me right now.

>Ask yourself would you risk all even you life for your Art, if the answer
>is no then you waste your time.

No way! I would not risk my security for my esoteric interests and I
would certainly not risk my life over it. I would risk my life for only
a few people on this planet and not for any ideas or philosophies.
I wouldn't give up my ideas but I see no point in being killed over them.

>Such a risk requires Faith.
>Such faith is only avilable once on has discovered what Crowley termed
>true will.
>Faith is the Inward Prime Matter, it is that simple, childs play.

Erk. This sound like one of those stardust-in-the-eyes idealistic
ideas. Why set yourself up like this, eh? We were given far more
tools that just that of faith. Nothing wrong with using Hod and
applying some rational tools and skepticism. Faith alone would send
me spinning into fluffy-bunny land. YMMV of course.

Regards,

- Peggy -

PS: What if the Unibomber is really an innocent alchemist, and that is
why he has chemicals in his cabin?